EP 3: INTERROGATION reflection
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Bates Investigates
Episode 3 ׀ Daniel Holtzclaw: Daniel Holtzclaw Interrogation Reflection
[OPENING MUSIC]
Disclaimer: This podcast deals with adult subject matter, including depictions of drug addiction, prostitution, sexual assault, and rape. Parental guidance is suggested.
00:37 [OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE]
Newscaster: Officer Daniel Holtzclaw, with the Police Department for three years, is accused of raping and sexually assaulting women he pulled over while on the job.
Jannie Ligons: He said, ‘Come on, come on, just a minute, just a minute’. I say, ‘Sir, I can’t do this’. I say, ‘you gonna shoot...’
Det. Kim Davis: Tell me your description of him.
Sherri Ellis: He’s black.
Det. Kim Davis: He’s b—okay, he’s a black male.
Det. Kim Davis: What did your daughter tell you?
Amanda Gates: She said, ‘I met this really hot cop’.
Shardayreon Hill: So, this is good evidence?
Det. Rocky Gregory: Well, you tell me.
[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE ENDS]
Timestamp: The following episode contains investigative events which occurred on June 18, 2014.
01:23
Host: Welcome back to Bates Investigates, the podcast - Season One - the State of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw. I am your host, licensed Private Investigator, and original member of the Daniel Holtzclaw defense team, Brian Bates. This serialized podcast is presented from the perspective of the prosecution, but with the scrutiny of the defense: the prosecution’s timeline, the prosecution’s evidence, the prosecution’s theories. However, I do not take those items at their face value, like so many within the mainstream media and the public has up to this point. I apply the scrutiny, or the perspective, or dare I say, reality of the defense. In this episode, I am going to do exactly what I was fearful my critics would accuse me of doing if I hadn’t released the entirety of Daniel Holtzclaw’s interrogation in last week’s episode. I'm going to condense the interrogation and cherry pick it in this episode, and give you my thoughts and insights, both what boded well for Holtzclaw and what ultimately raised red flags. I know episode two was a marathon episode coming in at just under two hours. But it's an important piece to this puzzle. To many people it is that interrogation that made up their minds as to Holtzclaw’s guilt or innocence. If you put ten people in a room and play that interrogation, five will tell you it conclusively shows a guilty man and five will tell you they have no doubt that they just listened to a completely innocent man profess his innocence and that declaration fell upon deaf ears. Why is that? It's pretty simple, actually, bias. We all have our own bias. We are bias either positively or negatively towards law enforcement. We have a bias for alleged sexual assault victims, or we have a bias to question the legitimacy of alleged sexual assault victims. We have underlying racist tendencies, whether we admit to them or not. We apply the “what would I do in this situation bias?” We become biased by third party information or misinformation. The list goes on and on.
3:45
When I was first hired to work on this case, I had not met Daniel Holtzclaw or his family. I was simply hired by his defense attorney to try and figure out if Daniel Holtzclaw was lying, and what exactly he was lying about. Why? Because the sad reality is that many—actually, I dare say most—criminal defense clients lie to their defense team. They either claim to be completely innocent, or they claim the charges are completely overblown. And in some cases, that's very true. The problem becomes trying to figure out which clients are being truthful and which clients are lying. And the lies, they are important to identify because the lies are the potential landmines in the defense’s strategy. Those lies can explode in your face and be the difference between a plea, a guilty verdict, or complete exoneration. So why, why do criminal defense clients lie to their defense team? In my over a decade of working on criminal cases, I'd say it comes down to two things: the first, denial. They simply can't come to terms with what they've done and their culpability in those criminal actions. Or two, they are fearful if they admit to the crimes, then their defense team will not try as hard to help them avoid a criminal record or even incarceration. The first thing I did when I was asked to take a look at this case, back in 2014, was to watch the interrogation video multiple times. The first time was just to get a feel for the interrogation. The second time was to take copious notes. What was the pattern or outline of the interrogation from the detectives’ perspective? What interrogation technique was being utilized? And most importantly, what exactly did Daniel Holtzclaw say? And how does what he said differ from what Jannie Ligons said? And whose version does the evidence actually support? What I didn't pay much attention to were what so many within the court of public opinion actually fixate on… Holtzclaw’s his body language, his speech patterns, and well, whatnot. I learned long ago that unless you have something that go on, like the defendant’s “normal behavior” under stress, or know the tells when that person is lying, then it's simply too easy to become distracted, misinterpret, or inadvertently reinforce any bias you may have by overanalyzing how a person is sitting, where they are looking, how they are talking. Is that a nervous tic? Or is it a tell? And what does it all mean?
6:25
Unfortunately, Holtzclaw was not given that same unbiased consideration by sex crimes detectives Kim Davis and Rocky Gregory. As I pointed out in episode one, Detective Davis admits that before she ever even scrutinized a single piece of evidence, or even identified Holtzclaw as her suspect, that she had already determined that Ligons was, in fact, a victim, and that she was telling the truth. Detective Davis' determination very early on to ensure that Holtzclaw was charged with one or more crimes was made even more evident when she obstructed Holtzclaw’s right to a fair investigation by forbidding other detectives to utilize a very common investigative tool, the photo line-up. With that opinion already firmly planted in her subconscious, the interrogation only served to reinforce that bias, and there's a term for it: confirmation bias. This from the Encyclopaedia Britannica: Confirmation bias is the tendency to produce information by looking for or interpreting information that is consistent with ones existing beliefs. This biased approach to decision making is largely unintentional, and often results in ignoring inconsistent information. Existing beliefs can include one's expectations in a given situation, and predictions about a particular outcome. People are especially likely to process information to support their own beliefs when the issue is highly important or self-relevant. Needless to say, both detectives Kim Davis and Rocky Gregory have openly admitted that this case was the biggest case of their careers. You'll recall from episode one, only an hour or two before this interrogation, Detective Davis was pulled aside and told, “The eyes of the department” were on her. After I spent most of the day watching and re-watching Holtzclaw’s interrogation, I next met with Holtzclaw’s family and asked them to watch the video and tell me how they interpreted Daniel’s body language and verbal responses, since only they knew how Daniel reacted in such situations and would know what's considered his “normal.” Now I'm going to play a portion of a conversation I had with Daniel's father, Eric. Eric Holtzclaw has spent much of his life in law enforcement both while in the military and as a civilian. Back in June of 2014, Eric Holtzclaw was, and still is today, a Lieutenant with another police department in another city in Oklahoma. Daniel’s High School hometown actually.
9:08 [RECORDING BEGINS]
Host: You all went in the conference room and you watched the video.
Eric Holtzclaw: Right.
Host: I left you alone and you watched it. What—what was your im—impression upon watching that video?
Eric Holtzclaw: A couple things struck me r—right away was that I felt h—they made him feel very uncomfortable, uh, cause of the questioning. They started talking about things that really didn’t pertain to what the allegations were. Uh, his sexual preference, which hand has he masturbated with… uh, she was talking this vulgar stuff that, that you wouldn’t need to talk to a police officer that way. Maybe some street thug that you’re trying to est—establish a rapport, but what she had was an opposite effect with, with Daniel. Made him feel uncomfortable. And he was talking about private sexual matters, that you’re talking to another police officer, not some street thug or some, uh, known sex offender, or, or something like that. So, I thought that was really weird. And then I think Daniel, still, when I look back at that deal, he was not aware of what they had already placed a bias on. Uh, but also, I felt Daniel felt uncomfortable. But I also said he looked very honest and truthful in the way he was answering. That’s the way he would answer something. That he was very serious and very scared, I think, at, uh, the way that he was being talked to because I think he re—started realizing, ‘what’s this about?’ I says, I should stop this lady. And they’re talking about, ‘Did you show em your penis? Did you, di—sh—see her your boobs? Did you… ha ha!’ And all this kinda wor—verbage she was using. So, uh, I think he was really miffed at what they were trying to place on him. And I don’t think he realized the gravity of the situation during the interview. In fact, he was trying to, trying to stay calm, I think, and say, ‘You can do anything. Give me a polygraph, take my DNA. I stopped this lady and I let her go and now I’m being accused of sexual assault.’ And, uh, and I think he was a little miffed at why he, why he was being targeted on that.
[RECORDING ENDS]
11:25
Host: There's a lot to this interrogation and a lot to unpack, so let's jump in. I want to share something that many of you probably don't know… when an officer is promoted to detective within the Oklahoma City Police Department, there is no “Detective School” they attend. Most of their training is simply on the job training shadowing another detective, and if that detective has bad habits, they are likely to be passed on to the next detective. That said, like all law enforcement officers, there are opportunities for continuing education: weekend or week long seminars on various topics, like Beware of Confirmation Bias and How to Conduct a Proper Interrogation. We know confirmation bias is already taken hold in this investigation, like a cancer, and unless it's addressed only continues to grow. But what can we learn from the interrogation itself? It appears that detectives are using some sort of a hybrid version of the Reid technique during their interrogation with Holtzclaw. The Reid technique is a technique first developed in the 1940s to elicit confessions from suspects. It's a three prong technique: isolation, maximization, and then, minimization. Basically, it's the technique often portrayed on TV shows and movies. You first isolate the suspect from everyone else; thus, the tiny uncomfortable windowless room. You tell the suspect you've got a lot of evidence and it doesn't look good for them. You follow up with some scenarios on how you think they committed the crime. Basically, you play the part of the bad cop, then you abruptly change direction and you go with the good cop approach. You comfort the defendant, you tell them you understand how this could have happened, and that if they would just cooperate with a confession, good things will come of it. The interrogation begins ominously enough.
13:23 [RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Rocky Gregory: Welcome to our domain. Now, what’s your first name?
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: Daniel is left to sit alone and uncomfortably until Detective Davis enters the room. Within three minutes of Daniel’s arrival, the tables are turned on him. While he has read the Miranda warning many times to those he’s arrested, this will be the first time he’s ever been on the receiving end.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Kim Davis: You have the right to remain silent.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.
Det. Kim Davis: You understand that? Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of law.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.
Det. Kim Davis: Do you understand that? You have the right to talk to a lawyer and have him or her present with you while you’re being questioned.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.
Det. Kim Davis: Do you understand that?
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: This is the point where, as a member of hundreds of defense teams, I would have advised Daniel to politely, yet firmly, exercise his rights and not said another word without an attorney present. But, Daniel is both caught off guard, not fully aware of the extent of the allegations against him, and he’s also a twenty-seven year old naïve enough to think that if he hasn’t doesn’t anything wrong then he has no harm in talking.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Kim Davis: Read this out loud.
Daniel Holtzclaw: [clears throat] I have read the statement of my rights and understand what my rights are. I am willing to make a statement and answer any questions at this time. I do not want a attorney present at this time. I understand and know that what I’m doing, no promises or threats have been made to me, and no pressure or force of any kind has been used against me.
Det. Kim Davis: Agree?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Agree.
Det. Kim Davis: Sign. Print. [pen scratching]
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: Only six minutes into the interrogation and you’ve gotten your suspect to waive his rights? And how does Detective Rocky Gregory choose to play his cards?
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Rocky Gregory: I masturbate right and left.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Oh, [laughing].
Det. Rocky Gregory: Does that work?
Daniel Holtzclaw: [laughing]
Det. Kim Davis: Oh, I think I do that left handed.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Very good.
Det. Kim Davis: Well, I am dominant left.
Det. Rocky Gregory: You are?
Det. Kim Davis: Yes. [long pause]
[RECORDING ENDS]
15:22
Host: That awkward silence is only magnified when you see the corresponding video. The idea is simple enough. Bring yourself down to whatever level you think will make your suspect feel most at ease so that he will open up. It has the opposite effect. You can visibly see how uncomfortable Holtzclaw is with the talk of masturbation and what hand someone uses. This play by detectives is just another example of their bias towards Holtzclaw. They had already sized him up as an overgrown child. A jock, with a locker room vocabulary. Their assessment, however, could not be more wrong.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Kim Davis: You had said, and we told you that, that there was a traffic stop.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.
Det. Kim Davis: That somebody made some allegations against an officer.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.
Det. Kim Davis: They don’t know the officer’s name. They don’t—none of that. Th—and you said that you made a traffic stop after work.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.
Det. Kim Davis: But you didn’t call it in.
Daniel Holtzclaw: I didn’t call it in.
Det. Kim Davis: Where was that?
Daniel Holtzclaw: It was about Northeast Fiftieth and Lincoln, just to the west.
Det. Kim Davis: Okay. Tell me about that stop.
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: For the first time in this investigation, we hear Holtzclaw’s version of events in his own words.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Daniel Holtzclaw: I was going westbound on Northeast Fiftieth, probably a block just east of, uh, Lincoln, I see a red Grand Prix, or Grand Am, in my right lane—in the outside lane, I’m on in the inside lane—the car swerves, and so at the time I’m thinking okay it’s probably a drunk person or maybe got excited cause he saw a cop. So, I kind of f—fall behind it, kind of drifting just a little bit, not crossing lane lines, nothing crazy, so I light it up. Because it, at first, the first traffic violation I saw at first, when it swerved. And that was just west of, uh, Northeast Fiftieth and Lincoln. And then, made contact. It was a black female. Um, asked for license and insurance. Um, stated that she didn’t have insurance, gave me an ID. At the time, I’m, like, ‘Do you have a valid insurance or valid license?’ She said, ‘No.’ I told her, ‘I just got off work, I mean, [laugh], what’s the deal? You know, why, why you swerving?’ And she says, uh, ‘I’m just trying to go home to Ann Arbor-ish on the northwest side…’ to see her daughter or something like that. Um, so, I asked, ‘Is there anything on board as far as the vehicle? Is it okay if I search your vehicle?’ And what not. And she said, ‘The only thing that’s inside there is a kool aid cup.’ I’m like, ‘Is there anything inside of that kool aid? Is there liquor or anything inside that kool aid?’ She’s, ‘No.’ I’m like, ‘Okay, is there anything else inside there?’ She says there’s pills. I’m like, ‘Is that the only thing?’ And then, so, I was, like, ‘Can I have permission to search your car?’ She says yes. I go inside the car and see a lot of pills. But, uh…
Det. Kim Davis: What kind of pills?
Daniel Holtzclaw: I didn’t really…
Det. Kim Davis: Like scattered pills or in a bottle pills?
Daniel Holtzclaw: She said it’s hydrocodone pills, but I just quickly glanced, looked at it, I think I saw her name on the prescription bottle, so I didn’t…
Det. Kim Davis: Oh, so it was a bottle?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.
Det. Kim Davis: Oh, okay.
Daniel Holtzclaw: There was several bottles in her purse. And then, so, at that time, I just returned back to her. Was, like, um, ‘Okay, I saw your pills. I didn’t see any alcohol. I sniffed the drink, didn’t smell any alcohol in the kool aid.’ I’m like, ‘Okay, I’m—I’m just off work. I’m tired. Um, get your license taken care of.’
Det. Kim Davis: So, she didn’t have a driver’s license?
Daniel Holtzclaw: She didn’t have a driver’s license. And I was just, like, ‘Go to DPS. Uh, Department of Public Safety, on King. Get that taken care of.’ And I cut her loose after that.
Det. Kim Davis: Okay. Then where’d you go?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Then went straight home.
Det. Kim Davis: Okay. Um…
[RECORDING ENDS]
18:57
Host: Detective Davis immediately latches onto the fact that Holtzclaw made the traffic stop in question while off the clock and while his computer and AVL were intentionally turned off. Daniel explains that he doesn’t often make off the clock traffic stops, but that he felt he should in this case, sort of officer intuition. I think it’s important to point out, it’s not against police policy to make traffic stops while off the clock. Especially since Daniel has a take home patrol car. Daniel has done nothing wrong by pulling Ligons over. That said, turning off his computer and AVL is against police policy. But, as I pointed out in episode one, that policy was fairly new, and prosecutors were forced to concede at trial that they had no proof Holtzclaw was even aware of the new policy. Regardless, as it has already been pointed out, Holtzclaw readily owned up to making the stop earlier that morning when it came up in line-up. Detectives Davis and Gregory will have Officer Holtzclaw go over the traffic stop several more times during the interrogation. The goal is to see if he changes his story to try to lessen his culpability. He doesn’t. In fact, his version of events is rock solid and mostly matches Jannie Ligons’ version, except in several very key areas, as noted by Detective Davis.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Kim Davis: A thing that kind of concerns me is everything you’re telling me is dead on to what she says. Everything. Except the sexual stuff.
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: While that’s important to note, it’s not completely accurate and all of the discrepancies will become important as the investigation moves forward. Let’s go over the points that differ in Holtzclaw’s version of events when compared to Jannie Ligons’. While Holtzclaw denies any sexual assault occurred, he also denies that he ever made Ligons place her hands on his patrol car while he patted her down. Furthermore, Ligons also asserted that Holtzclaw placed his hands on the top of his patrol car to shield the view from passing motorists. That discrepancy did not go unnoticed by the detectives, and CSI technicians were at that very moment scouring the exterior of Holtzclaw’s patrol car for fingerprint or DNA proof that Ligons’ version of events was supported by forensic evidence. I will be discussing the result of that effort in the next episode.
21:38
Holtzclaw also maintained that Ligons did not expose her breasts nor pull her pants down during the traffic stop. The detectives counter those assertions by insisting that the video from the surveillance cameras may show something different. Holtzclaw remains firm in his answer. As for the “sex stuff”, Jannie Ligons just hours ago submitted herself for a SANE test. The results of that test will also be discussed in the next episode. Again, when Daniel is insistent that no sexual activity occurred, the detectives respond by claiming the video shows a lot of things going on and that it’s not looking good for Holtzclaw. The detectives even go so far as to claim they found public hairs and tell Holtzclaw that they are going to test them. Holtzclaw, once again, is unwavering. Another important deviation from Ligons’ version of events is the fact that Holtzclaw repeatedly mentions the presence of “pills on board,” which is police slang for the assertion he found pills in pill bottles marked with Ligons’ name when he searched her purse. Ligons denies having any pills on her and detectives make no attempt to verify if she has any valid prescriptions. The first time that question is explored is by the defense and just prior to trial. I’ll give you my thoughts on the pills in a future episode. One thing that that I noted was the amount of details that does indeed match Ligons’ claims. Holtzclaw freely admits Ligons was cooperative, but also very nervous, even frightened, continuously mentioning Holtzclaw’s side arm and the fact she thought he might shoot her. Had Holtzclaw had a guilty conscience, I do not think he would have included those details in his version of events. It would have been much easier, and to his benefit, to simply say she was not cooperative. She was belligerent, she was mad at him… that would have possibly given the detectives a reason to suspect Ligons was making the allegations up. But Holtzclaw is a straight shooter. He freely admits to details that he has to know may send up red flags. Holtzclaw initially thinks the complaint is limited to Ligons claiming he may have touched her butt, made her expose herself, or that she was offended by him standing with his crotch too close to her while she sat in the back of his patrol car and he stood between the car and the open door. About twenty-two minutes into the interrogation, things get a bit more ominous as the detectives tell Holtzclaw they need to take his “buccals”. That’s cop lingo for they need to swab the inside of his mouth for DNA. That DNA will be compared to any DNA found from Ligons’ rape kit. It’s also at this time that Detectives Gregory and Davis point out the following to Holtzclaw.
24:44 [RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Rocky Gregory: We kind of bring you in here to…
Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.
Det. Rocky Gregory: …see how truthful you are.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Now you need to kinda, kinda think of a few different things here.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. We pulled up a lot of video around that area…
Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.
Det. Rocky Gregory: …after these allegations.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay? She also haved a SANE exam, which you know what consists of.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.
Det. Rocky Gregory: There’s a reason why we wanted your buccals.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. Now, I mean, we can go through a couple different things…
Daniel Holtzclaw: Mm hmm.
Det. Rocky Gregory: …of why we’ve got you in here, but… you sure there’s nothing you wanna?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Nothing.
Det. Rocky Gregory: So, if we go off the video and watch that?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.
Det. Rocky Gregory: You’re still gonna stick with your story.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Yes, sir.
Det. Kim Davis: If we go off DNA?
Daniel Holtzclaw: DNA, as well.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Should we show you the video?
Daniel Holtzclaw: If—yes!
Det. Rocky Gregory: You, you do wanna see it?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Do I? Yes.
Det. Rocky Gregory: So, there’s nothing that you…
Daniel Holtzclaw: Everything that I recall of that night is what I—what was asked and everything. That’s what happened.
Det. Kim Davis: If I—have I maybe not asked enough questions?
Daniel Holtzclaw: I think everything covered as far as that.
Det. Kim Davis: Do you recall putting your penis in her mouth?
Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t.
Det. Kim Davis: Would you recall that if you did it?
Daniel Holtzclaw: If I did it, yeah.
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: Holtzclaw seems unfazed by these far more serious allegations. In fact, it’s his composure and lack of emotion that I often hear from the public is what made some feel he must be guilty. I personally never read his reactions that way. Holtzclaw doesn’t have a reputation for being explosive, having a temper, or even raising his voice. Virtually everyone I’ve ever spoken to who knew Holtzclaw consistently said that while he was a leader, he was more subdued, or the silent type. Many people have even described him as shy, but confident. Holtzclaw seems to be reflecting those characteristics throughout this interrogation. Around thirty minutes into the interrogation, Detective Gregory switches gears and mentions another potential victim, Terry Morris. Morris is a forty-three year old black female who is admittedly perpetually homeless, with addiction and mental health issues. Morris made an off-the-cuff sexual assault allegation against an unknown officer in recent weeks. Detectives Davis and Gregory know that Holtzclaw encountered Morris in early May, or about five weeks prior to the Jannie Ligons stop.
27:19 [RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Rocky Gregory: Let’s switch up for a second. We had another girl, okay?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Mm hmm.
Det. Rocky Gregory: You probably don’t, not necessarily gonna remember the name, but her name is Terry Morris. Okay? Black female. Um, supposedly, you promised her a ride to the City Rescue Mission. This ring a bell?
Daniel Holtzclaw: No.
Det. Rocky Gregory: You did a—a—a traffic stop with her, uh, she thought you ran her for warrants. Clicking? You drove her around.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Unh uh.
Det. Rocky Gregory: No?
Daniel Holtzclaw: That name doesn’t—I don’ recall a name like that.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. She’s claiming the same thing. The exact same thing. And here again, for whatever reason, things are pointing at you again.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Now this is before even this incident this morning. Traffic stop. Not logged in. All that stuff.
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: In the detectives’ minds, the Morris allegations are identical to the Ligons’ allegations. An off the clock encounter that leads to forced or coerced oral sex from the alleged victim. Further investigation that we will explore in the coming weeks proves that the similarities in these two allegations are almost non-existent. Two additional questions that Detective Davis asked and Daniel answered will have particular importance as the case evolves.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Kim Davis: Do you run everybody that you come in contact with?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Majority of the time.
Det. Kim Davis: Do you give people rides sometimes?
Daniel Holtzclaw: I do give people rides.
Det. Kim Davis: Do you?
Daniel Holtzclaw: I do.
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: Eventually, detectives get around to what is probably the most controversial part of the interrogation… did Daniel Holtzclaw try to have sex with his then girlfriend when he got home from the Ligons’ traffic stop?
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Rocky Gregory: When you went home, was anybody home?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, my girlfriend was home?
[simultaneously] Det. Kim Davis: Do—do you live with her?
Det. Rocky Gregory: Did you get laid?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Huh? No, she doesn’t. She just stayed.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Did you get laid?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, messed around, yeah.
Det. Kim Davis: What’s messed around?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh.
Det. Kim Davis: Sex?
Daniel Holtzclaw: I guess…
Det. Rocky Gregory: We’re all adults.
Daniel Holtzclaw: We almost had sex, and she was tired.
Det. Kim Davis: What’d you do?
Daniel Holtzclaw: So, my penis went around her vagina, and then, maybe went a little bit in, and then she pushed me off and said, ‘No. We don’t wanna… I’m tired.’ And I was, like, okay.
[RECORDING ENDS]
29:49
Host: Eventually, Detective Davis gets around to excusing herself and calling Holtzclaw’s girlfriend, Carrie. She’ll ask Carrie if Holtzclaw did indeed try and have sex with her when he got home earlier that same morning. Detective Davis doesn’t like the answer she gets. But, in her mind, it’s the answer she’s been looking for. A lie.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Kim Davis: I just talked to Carrie.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.
Det. Kim Davis: She said she was asleep when you got home and you did not try to have sex, and you did not have sex.
Daniel Holtzclaw: I did try to have sex with her.
Det. Kim Davis: She says you didn’t. And I asked her, ‘Could you have been asleep and you kinda… blaaaah, no?’ And she said, ‘No.’ She—you did not try to have sex.
Daniel Holtzclaw: As much as I don’t want to involve her, I tried to have sex with her and she was asleep. Carrie goes to sleep pretty early. About nine, ten, at the lat—at the latest.
Det. Kim Davis: Okay, but [stuttering noises] she would know if you tried. I’m a woman.
Daniel Holtzclaw: I know. And [laughing].
Det. Kim Davis: If my husband comes home in the middle of the night and I’m like, ‘Are you kidding me?! I’ve been asleep.’ You said you trolled around her vagina.
Daniel Holtzclaw: I did.
Det. Kim Davis: And you put it in a little bit. And then she said, ‘I’m tired, no.’
Daniel Holtzclaw: I did.
Det. Kim Davis: She would remember that to tell me.
Daniel Holtzclaw: She—maybe, yeah.
Det. Kim Davis: She said you did not try to have sex.
Daniel Holtzclaw: [laughing] It’s more personal cause it’s Carrie, but I did try to have sex with Carrie. I did.
Det. Kim Davis: I—I—I—I don’t know what to say, I mean, cause it just looks like I just caught you in a lie and now I don’t know what to believe.
[RECORDING ENDS]
31:20
Host: I don’t know if Detective Davis really considers this a lie on Holtzclaw’s part, or if she just knows she needs to make him think he was caught in a lie so that maybe he’ll start to crack. Personally, I don’t know why Detective Davis assumes it’s Holtzclaw telling the lie and not the girlfriend. I do know this: if some stranger called my wife while she’s at the gym and asked if I tried to have sex that morning, my wife is probably going to tell that person off. At the very least, she is going to deny it because it’s simply nobody’s business. To put Carrie’s response in perspective, she’s at a public gym working out; she’s literally a pastor’s daughter; and she’s the sister of a prosecutor in the Sex Crimes unit of the Oklahoma County DA’s office. She’s also been trying to get ahold of Holtzclaw on his phone for the past hour. Lastly, Carrie also suffers from insomnia and takes sleeping medication most nights. She’ll later testify that Daniel may have very well tried to have sex with her and that she simply doesn’t remember it because she was in such a deep sleep, and it’s not uncommon for Holtzclaw to initiate sex when he gets off work. The mood in the room changes. Detective Davis, who’s playing the part of the bad cop, calls Daniel out as a liar. She’ll continue this line of attack for the rest of the interrogation. It does get to Daniel, but there will be no confession. Daniel is adamant that he didn’t do anything wrong and that he wants the detectives to “get it done”. He repeatedly says this. He wants the DNA tested. He wants the video analyzed. He wants a polygraph.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Rocky Gregory: You got any questions involving this?
Daniel Holtzclaw: [laughing]
Det. Rocky Gregory: I mean, you—you’ve asked.
Daniel Holtzclaw: I’m getting attacked now. I’m just feeling like, I’m, like, God… bless. [sigh] I want DNA. I want everything. I want… get it done.
Det. Rocky Gregory: We—we—we’re gonna put it to the front of the line, okay?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Get it done.
Det. Kim Davis: You’d be willing to take a polygraph on it?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.
Det. Kim Davis: We’re gonna call tomorrow. We can’t get ahold of the polygrapher today.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.
Det. Kim Davis: On the video, are we gonna see her boobies?
Daniel Holtzclaw: You shouldn’t see her boobs. I didn’t see her boobs.
Det. Kim Davis: Okay. Are we gonna see her pull her pants down?
Daniel Holtzclaw: I didn’t see her pull her pants down.
Det. Kim Davis: Okay. Are we gonna see your penis out?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Nope.
Det. Kim Davis: Are we gonna see your penis go in her mouth?
Daniel Holtzclaw: No.
Det. Kim Davis: Are we gonna get any DNA to that?
Daniel Holtzclaw: No.
[RECORDING ENDS]
33:54
Host: Daniel repeatedly expresses his desire to cooperate fully and to get this investigation over with as soon as possible. Daniel wants to clear his name desperately because he is very aware what these sort of allegations can do to negatively impact an officer’s career.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Daniel Holtzclaw: I’ve never been in trouble like this before. Never got accused of anything like this or nothing. I’ve heard of officers going through this and, and, what not, and that’s something I don’t want my rep to be, you know, about. You know, I’m, I’m a good officer, I, I don’t, that’s not me. That’s not me.
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: As the detectives wrap up the nearly two hour interrogation, they turn their attention to Holtzclaw’s uniform pants.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Rocky Gregory: Your pants. These the pants you wore last, last shift?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, yes.
Det. Rocky Gregory: It is?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Yes.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. What about your underwear?
Daniel Holtzclaw: No.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Where they at?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, the wash.
Det. Rocky Gregory: They’re in the washer?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Washer.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Washer.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. All right. Well, I need your pants.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: As the detectives step out of the room, Holtzclaw asks if he can call his girlfriend and let her know he’s going to be heading home soon.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Rocky Gregory: We—we’re really done with you.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Just hang tight.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Can I, can I message her and say I, I’ll—cause she’s probably blowing up my phone.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Oh yeah, yeah.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Just like, hey, I’ll talk…
Det. Rocky Gregory: You’re fine. You’re fine.
Daniel Holtzclaw: [sigh]
Carrie: Hello?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Hey baby.
Carrie: Hello.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Babe.
Carrie: Yeah.
Daniel Holtzclaw: I need to [laughing] I need to tell you what’s going on. It’s crazy.
Carrie: Okay, well don’t [inaudible].
Daniel Holtzclaw: I said, when will, I’m on, I’m basically on my way home and I’d like to talk to you. What’s going on, is, is crazy.
Carrie: Okay. You’re on your way home?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, gimme, uh, they gotta give me a ride so I don’t know. Probably like ten, fifteen minutes.
Carrie: Til you leave?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Til I, get, fifteen, yeah, around there. I don’t know. Fifteen, twenty, thirty minutes. Around there.
Carrie: So, [inaudible] fifteen minutes after that?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Yes.
Carrie: Seriously, what’s going on [inaudible]?
Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t know [laughing] it’s, I—I gotta tell you it’s, it’s crazy. It just, it’s nuts. I gotta… So, I, I love you, okay?
Carrie: Okay.
Daniel Holtzclaw: I love you.
Carrie: Love you too. Bye.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Bye.
[RECORDING ENDS]
36:37
Host: It’s important to note what can be observed in the video version of this interrogation when Holtzclaw changes out of his uniform pants and into a pair of gym shorts. Holtzclaw is not just wearing pants. There is an entire system of layers underneath his clothing. For starters, his underwear. They are athletic compression shorts that are extremely tight fitting and have no fly. He’s also wearing a muscle shirt, a bulletproof vest with a flap that hangs below his groin, and then his uniform shirt. The shirt is actually physically held in place below his groin by shirt stays that connect the bottom of his shirt to the top of his socks. The purpose is specifically to keep his uniform shirt tucked tightly into his pants. As Holtzclaw confirmed to me, and his girlfriend would later testify, this layering makes even simple tasks like using the restroom, cumbersome to say the least. Yet, time after time, accusers who have no idea the complexity of Holtzclaw’s uniform will insist that he exposed his penis through the fly of his pants with little to no effort at all. Detective Gregory returns to the room to collect Holtzclaw’s uniform.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Rocky Gregory: Put your pants in this bag and then put the… it looks like you’re gonna need the… Unless you wanna keep the shirt on. I don’t know. I don’t know if this shirt’s gonna be big enough for you. You’re a big old boy. I was gonna get a Tyvex. I don’t know where these came from. [Shuffling noises]
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: That rustling noise you just heard is Detective Gregory opening a paper evidence sack and literally placing his ungloved hand into and throughout the bag. By all measure, Detective Gregory has shown his complete incompetence by violating a very basic evidence collection rule – do nothing to contaminate evidence collected for DNA analysis. By placing his hand inside the bag, he has just introduced and possibly transferred any DNA on his hands into the sterile environment of the evidence bag. Furthermore, Detective Gregory allows Holtzclaw to roll up his uniform pants and place them in the evidence bag, all while his belt is still in place and possibly transferring DNA to multiple locations.
39:22
What’s also important to note at this time is what detectives choose not to collect from Daniel Holtzclaw… they decide not to ask for his complete uniform. They let him keep his uniform shirt, bulletproof vest, and t-shirt—all of which clearly hung below his waistline and could contain DNA from one or more accuser. They don’t even bother to collect his underwear, the underwear of a man they suspect of being a serial rapist. The detectives later brush off that idea because Holtzclaw told them that the underwear he wore during his previous shift were in the washer, but they also have been very clear that they think Holtzclaw is a liar. So, why choose to believe him now, and why choose to believe him in regard to such a critical piece of evidence? Detectives never even seek a search warrant to retrieve his underwear or uniform or other items from his apartment. In fact, even though law enforcement routinely performs search warrants, these detectives never go to his home, never search his computer, and literally gave him his cell phone back after finding that he left it in his patrol car prior to the interrogation. Holtzclaw was being completely cooperative and expressed a desire to do anything to get the investigation over with. This was a perfect time to get him to sign a consent to search form for his home, his computer, and his cell phone. But these seasoned detectives did none of that. After being left alone in the interrogation room for one last time, two uniformed officers enter the room and let Daniel know what will happen next and offer to give him a ride home.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Unidentified Officer #1: Hey, Dan.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Hey, man.
Unidentified Officer #1: Boy, it’s hot in here.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, it is.
Unidentified Officer #1: Hey, uh, until this investigation gets all completed, what’s going on, we’re gonna put you on Administrative Leave with Pay, okay?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.
Unidentified Officer #1: Just part of procedures. You know?
Daniel Holtzclaw: [laughing]
Unidentified Officer #1: They gotta do this until it gets all taken care of, okay?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.
Unidentified Officer #1: So, what I’m gonna do. I’m gonna give you this to sign that you’re receiving it.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.
Unidentified Officer #1: And I’m gonna give you a copy to take home. I want you to read it very carefully when you get home.
Daniel Holtzclaw: I will.
Unidentified Officer #1: Cause there’s some detail stuff that people forget to read. You know? Such as, you gotta check in with me every Tuesday morning before nine o’clock.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.
Unidentified Officer #1: Call me at the station and just make sure I know who you are and where you’re at.
Unidentified Officer #2: And he’s gonna take these things home?
Unidentified Officer #1: Yes. He can take those home wit—you can take those home, that, those items with you, you can take.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.
Unidentified Officer #1: All right?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.
Unidentified Officer #2: Okay, thanks Sergeant.
Unidentified Officer #1: I will probably come bring…
[RECORDING ENDS]
42:03
Host: And like that, it’s over. Daniel Holtzclaw will never again wear the badge and gun of an Oklahoma City Police Officer. But he’s not under arrest and he’s not yet charged with any crimes. In next week’s episode, we will wrap up the Jannie Ligons’ allegations with the results of the forensic testing, analysis of the surveillance video, a late night call from Ligons to a relative who works for the Oklahoma City Police Department, and Ligons’ decision to go public in her first TV interview only five days after her alleged sexual assault. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to subscribe and give us a five star review. If you would like to know more and see many of the files used to compile this episode, please visit this season’s homepage at holtzclawtrial.com. You can also follow updates on our Facebook page at In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw, or on Twitter @HoltzclawTrial. Bates Investigates - Season One: the Daniel Holtzclaw case is researched, produced, and edited by me, Brian Bates. This has been a bug stomper production.