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Preface:

Bates Investigates

Episode 0 ׀Daniel Holtzclaw: Preface

 

Disclaimer: This podcast deals with adult subject matter, including depictions of drug addiction, prostitution, sexual assault, and rape.  Parental guidance is suggested.

 

00:11[RECORDING BEGINS]

Judge Timothy Henderson: In The District Court of Oklahoma County, State of Oklahoma, The State of Oklahoma versus Daniel K. Holtzclaw.  Verdict. Count One: Sexual Battery.  We, the jury, empaneled and sworn in the above-entitled cause, do, upon our oaths, find as follows: Defendant is guilty of the crime of Sexual Battery and set punishment at eight years.  Count Five: guilty, punishment is set at five years. Count Eight: guilty, punishment is set at twenty years.  Count Ten: guilty, punishment is set at sixteen years.  Count Eleven: guilty, punishment is set at thirty years.  Count Thirteen: guilty, punishment is set at eight years. Count Fourteen: guilty, punishment is set at eight years.  Count Fifteen: guilty, punishment is set at five years.  Count Sixteen: guilty, punishment is set at sixteen years. Count Twenty-Seven: guilty, punishment is set at sixteen years.  Count Twenty-Eight: guilty, punishment is set at thirty years.  Count Twenty-Nine: guilty, punishment is set at thirty years. Count Thirty: guilty, punishment is set at eight years.  Count Thirty-One: guilty, punishment is set at twelve years.  Count Thirty-Two: guilty, punishment is set at thirty years. Count Thirty-Three: guilty, punishment is set at eight years.  Count Thirty-Four: guilty, punishment is set at eight years.  Is this your verdict, so say you all?

 

Jury Foreman:Yes.

 

Judge Timothy Henderson: All right, well, this will conclude the State of Oklahoma versus Daniel K. Holtzclaw.  The Court is in recess. 

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

01:32

Host:And with that, many people thought that they knew everything they needed to know about the allegations, investigation, and conviction of former Oklahoma City Police Officer, Daniel Holtzclaw.  But what if I told you, you have never been told the entire truth about this case?  My name is Brian Bates.  I’m a licensed Private Investigator and I was a member of Daniel Holtzclaw’s original criminal defense team.

 

[AUDIO COLLAGE]

Newscaster:Officer Daniel Holtzclaw, with the Police Department for three years, is accused of raping and sexually assaulting women he pulled over while on the job.

 

Jannie Ligons:He said, ‘Come on, come on, just a minute, just a minute’.  I say, ‘Sir, I can’t do this’.  I say, ‘you gonna shoot...’

 

Det. Kim Davis:Tell me your description of him.

 

Sherri Ellis:He’s black.

 

Det. Kim Davis:He’s b—okay, he’s a black male.

 

Det. Kim Davis:What did your daughter tell you?

 

Amanda Gates:She said, ‘I met this really hot cop’.

 

Shardayreon Hill:So, this is good evidence?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Well, you tell me.

[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE ENDS]

 

02:40

Host:Is this good evidence?  That’s exactly the question I hope to answer in the coming weeks. Did Daniel Holtzclaw systematically prey upon the most vulnerable women in the community he had sworn to protect and serve?  Or is Daniel Holtzclaw a scapegoat for all manner of political correctness and investigative incompetence?  When I was first hired to help Daniel Holtzclaw’s defense team prepare for trial, I was convinced I was working for yet another guilty client.  And I didn’t keep that opinion secret from Daniel.  He had this routine.  Every time we would meet, he would ask me if I thought he was guilty.  And each time, I’d look him in the eye, and I’d say, ‘Yes.  Yes, Daniel.  I think you did something.  I just haven’t figured out what it is yet.’  But, each yes came with a caveat that I couldn’t find a smoking gun.  In fact, I couldn’t even find compelling evidence of guilt of a single allegation.  Originally, I felt Daniel Holtzclaw was guilty for the very reason so many others have felt he is guilty now.  How could thirteen women all point the finger at one man and he not be guilty of at least some of their allegations? 

 

03:58

But as I began to examine all of the discovery evidence, a more perplexing question arose: how could Daniel Holtzclaw commit thirty-six violent crimes against thirteen women, at seventeen crimes scenes, and not leave a single piece of forensic evidence and not be observed by a single independent eye witness?  I was either dealing with a criminal mastermind, or the unluckiest cop I’d ever met. It wasn’t until I had read, watched, and listened to every piece of evidence that I could finally tell Daniel that I truly believed he is innocent.  With that said, I’m not saying he is without some level of culpability.

 

04:45

Over the next several weeks, even months, I will be telling the story of the allegations, investigation, and conviction of former Oklahoma City Police Officer, Daniel Holtzclaw.  While I may be biased in my opinion, I will be one hundred percent transparent in my telling of Daniel’s story.  I will also be releasing every piece of discovery evidence in my possession related to this case.  I will not trumpet reasonable doubt while concealing reasonable guilt.  I invite you to take this journey with me and decide for yourself… is this good evidence?  And when it is all said and done, was justice served or was justice denied?

[CLOSING MUSIC]

EPISODE 01

EPISODE 1 TRANSCRIPT (WITH LINKS AND DISCOVERY)

Advisory: This podcast deals with adult subject matter, including depictions of drug addiction, prostitution, sexual assault and rape. Parental guidance is suggested.

Date/Time: The following episode contains investigative events which occurred on June 18, 2014.

Brian Bates: (00:45) Oklahoma City, it has been my home for virtually all of my 49 years. It's also the capital for the state of Oklahoma. The story I'm going to share took place in 2014 and almost literally within the shadow of the State Capitol building. This is the northeast side of Oklahoma City, or simply the east side, as many of the residents refer to it. This area of town used to be home to a popular amusement park and public swimming hall called Springlake. And when I say public, I unfortunately mean the whites only public of the time. Attempts at integration took place in the 1960s and the 1970s. Unfortunately, in 1971, one of those attempts led to Springlake Amusement Park being the site of Oklahoma City's worst race riot. While the park closed in the early 80s, the Springlake name lives on.

Today Springlake is most widely known as one of the four police patrol districts within Oklahoma City. There are many ways to describe the part of the east side where our story takes place. It's an area where a large portion of Oklahoma City's black population lives. There are lots of small locally owned businesses, there is very much a sense of community within the aging population, and there's a church on most every corner. That said, it's also a low income area with extremely high rates of drug use and disproportionately high crime. The criminal activities on the east side range from lower level crimes like petty theft, vandalism, and prostitution, to much more serious crimes like armed robberies, home invasions, human trafficking, rape, and murder.

Despite the high crime rate, the area actually has a statistically low 911 call rate. I attribute this mostly to two factors. The first being a prevailing no snitching code amongst the areas residents. In my experience, this really isn't so much of a moral code as it is an underlying threat, more along the lines of snitches get stitches. The second is a general distrust for police and the Oklahoma County's DA's office.

(02:51) The Police Department at the time, 2014, was led by Oklahoma City Police Chief Bill Citty. Citty actually announced his retirement earlier this year, 2019, after serving as the city's top cop for 15 years.

Citty's career has included some well publicized disagreements with the police officers' union, and a recent court ruling that specifically stated that then Chief Citty had unfairly retaliated against a police lieutenant who had notified federal prosecutors of suspected criminal activity by a well liked, high ranking police officer, who also happened to be friends of Chief Citty. The court ruled that Citty was liable in a $648,000 settlement in the case. Citty retired less than a year later.

(03:37) Citty's concerning behavior though has direct ties to the east side and can be traced all the way back to a 1979 case where then Patrol Officer Citty and his partner were accused by a black female resident of the northeast side of illegally entering and searching her home, illegally seizing her vehicle, and illegally arresting her. According to court documents, Patrol Officer Citty referred to the mother's brother using the N word. Now I'm going to provide a link to this court case, and you can read the actual quotes and the documents there. I'm not going to repeat exactly what then Patrol Officer Citty said, but it's pretty bad.

When the woman asked if she could call someone to get her children, because she's being arrested, Citty reportedly replied that he would call the animal shelter to come and get them. A judge who ruled on the case is quoted as saying this about Patrol Officer Bill Citty and his partner, quote, "The officers were either incompetently ignorant of their legal authority, or who knew that what they were doing was illegal and acted with outrageous maliciousness." A judge went on to say, and I quote, "Crushed were the fundamental rights of a single protesting citizen beneath the grinding boot heel of uniformed government agents with all the cold callousness of an imperial executioner." And exactly how was then Oklahoma City Patrol Officer Bill Citty punished? Well, he was promoted to chief.

(05:05) Our Oklahoma County district attorney's office is led by DA David Prater. Prater was elected into office in 2006, he's run unopposed ever since, and he's earned the distinguished honor of leading the state's largest prosecutorial body in a state that has since his election been named the incarceration leader of the world. Oklahoma incarcerates more mothers, fathers, sons, and daughters than any other place on the planet.

In Oklahoma, 1300 out of every 100,000 adults is incarcerated. That's 50% higher than the national average. When you look at our black population, they are incarcerated at a rate six times that for white Oklahomans, yet blacks make up only 12% of Oklahoma's total population. So needless to say, residents on the east side have watched many of their friends, loved ones, and neighbors locked up or otherwise disproportionately punished by a mostly white police force and a DA with a lock-them-up attitude.

(06:08) The racial tensions in Oklahoma in 2014 were pretty much a reflection of tensions across the country. You'll recall the Ferguson race riots, which began in August of that year. This story, this serialized podcast, is as much about racial tensions and distrust as it is about bad policing and injustice. Exactly how to define that injustice is where you come in.

(06:32) This story is about a white Oklahoma City Springlake patrol officer, and how an off the clock traffic stop of a black grandmother launched an investigation into sexual assault. That investigation ultimately identified 36 alleged crimes at 17 alleged crime scenes against 13 black females who ranged in age from 17 to 57. Yet, without a single piece of direct forensic evidence, not a single independent eye witness, and mounds of reasonable doubt, the officer was found guilty and subsequently sentenced to 263 years in an undisclosed prison. That officer is Daniel Holtzclaw, and this is my podcast to uncover the truth.

(07:14) My name is Brian Bates. I'm a licensed private investigator. I worked the Daniel Holtzclaw case for the defense. I have in my possession every piece of discovery evidence in this case. I will be revealing every police report, every allegation, every interview, and every instance where officer Holtzclaw appears guilty, and every instance where he appears innocent. It is my opinion, after researching this case in its entirety, that Daniel Holtzclaw is innocent of the crimes in which he was convicted of, and I will lay out in great detail how I came to that conclusion. Welcome to the premiere episode of my podcast, Bates Investigates Season One: The State of Oklahoma Versus Daniel Holtzclaw.

[Link to audio montage below]

Reporter: (08:00) Officer Daniel Holtzclaw, with the police department for three years, is accused of raping and sexually assaulting women he pulled over while on the job.

Jannie Ligons: He said, "Come on, come on. Just a minute, just a minute." I'd say, sir, "I can't do this." I'd say, "You'd going to shoot."

Kim Davis: Your description of him?

Sherri Ellis: He's black.

Kim Davis: Okay, he's a black male.

Kim Davis: What did your daughter tell you?

Amanda Gates: She said, "I met this really hot cop."

Shardayreon Hill: So this is good evidence?

Rocky Gregory: Well, you tell me.

Brian Bates: (08:38) The story of Daniel Holtzclaw begins in the early morning hours of June 18th, 2014. At that time, Holtzclaw had graduated the police academy and had been working the second shift patrol out of the Springlake district for less than about two years. Like most officers, Holtzclaw worked so many days on and then so many days off. He had just returned to patrol duty after a few days off, on June 17th. Holtzclaw begins each shift around 4:00 p.m. in the afternoon and ends about 2:00 a.m. the following morning.

It's a little before 2:00 a.m. on June 18th, 2014. Holtzclaw has pulled into the Springlake briefing station. The Springlake station is located in a residential neighborhood just west from where the original Springlake Amusement Park was once located. Holtzclaw was released from his shift by a supervisor shortly after his arrival. Now off duty. Holtzclaw then drives his take home patrol car away from the Springlake Station and north along North Prospect Avenue. His onboard patrol car GPS system, technically referred to as automatic vehicle locator, or AVL for short, has tracked Holtzclaw's every movement throughout his shift. That, however, suddenly goes dark as he approaches Northeast 50th Street as he reaches over and turns off his patrol car's onboard computer. This computer controls his communications with dispatch, allows him to run searches, and powers his patrol car's AVL system, even though records will eventually show that he literally turns off his computer after every shift. Shutting that system off is a violation of a fairly new change to OCPD's policies and procedures.

Holtzclaw turns left on to Northeast 50th Street heading westbound. It's almost pitch black. At the same time, another vehicle has turned on to Northeast 50th just a couple of blocks ahead of him. Holtzclaw takes notice of the vehicle. It's an older model, four door, red, Pontiac Grand Am with dark tinted windows. Holtzclaw will later recount that what got his attention was the fact that he observed the vehicle to swerve just a bit. As the two vehicles approached the red light at Northeast 50th and Lincoln Boulevard, he has a decision to make.

To go home, Holtzclaw just needs to make a right turn onto Lincoln Boulevard, but the Grand Am doesn't have its blinker on. If he's going to pull the vehicle over, he'll have to do it now. I'm sure it seemed like a pretty mundane decision at the time, but Holtzclaw has no way of knowing how that split second decision was going to impact the rest of his life.

(11:26) As the light turns green, both vehicles proceed straight ahead. Holtzsclaw reaches over and turns on his overhead strobe lights signaling for the vehicle ahead of him to pull over. Both cars come to a stop just 200 feet west of the intersection. It's a fairly well lit intersection at the highest point in the immediate area, and Holtzclaw's strobe lights are literally a beacon in an otherwise blank canvas of the night. Additionally, they are only two miles, as the crow flies, from the Springlake Briefing Station, and they are parked directly in front of a two story office building that has numerous exterior surveillance cameras, and a 24 hour armed off-duty police officer working security.

Holtzclaw steps out of his patrol car and cautiously walks towards the Grand Am. He's understandably on high alert, and the tension is growing. He can't see inside the car because of the heavily tinted windows. He has no idea how many people are inside or what they are doing. He has one hand on his holstered revolver. He thinks to himself, this could be nothing more than a drunk or impaired driver, even a child who has snuck out of the house with their parent's car keys, or it could be gang bangers, a pimp, a car full of stolen items or simply some local up to no good.

But Holtzclaw is nothing if not full of confidence in his ability to protect himself and handle almost any situation. At 27 years old and standing six foot two inches tall, this 260 pound, half white, half Japanese officer is a Goliath of a man. Holtzclaw's tension, however, is quickly alleviated when he sees the driver's door open, and an older black female's face peering between the gap.

(13:10) She exclaims, "The window, it don't roll down." The driver, a 57 year old grandmother appears harmless enough, but the officer is still suspect as to what the driver is up to at this late hour. With purple striped hair, large hoop gold earrings, and the demeanor of barely opened eyes and a raspy slur to her voice, the officer thinks the open travel cup of dark liquid next to her in the console may hold the answers as to why she was swerving. The traffic stop lasts for about 15 minutes, from 2:00 a.m. until 2:15, at which point the officer concludes the swerving may have been nothing more than inattentive driving, or nervousness from seeing a patrol car in her rear view mirror.

And the driver had every reason to be nervous, she hasn't had a valid driver's license in about 30 years. Traffic stop concluded, both cars make a U-turn and then immediately turn north onto Lincoln Boulevard and get on to Interstate 44. From Holtzclaw's perspective, this traffic stop is a non-event, and he continues his 20-minute drive home, knowing he has to return to work later that same afternoon.

His perspective, however, couldn't be further from reality. At 3:40 AM, just an hour and 25 minutes later, and just a few blocks north fromwhere the traffic stop occurred, two Springlake Patrol Officers are stopped in a parking lot off Lincoln Boulevard. They have just checked an alarm call at a business. A Maroon Ford Expedition pulls up, and its frantic occupants approach the officers. One of the people getting out of the vehicle is the grandmother from the 2:00 a.m. traffic stop. The other occupants are the grandmother's adult daughter, the adult daughter's young children, and the adult daughter's live-in boyfriend. The first words to the officers, and I'm paraphrasing, "My mother, she was raped by a cop who stopped her right over there."

The fuse was lit and there was no turning back.

(15:08) What happened next, in my opinion, directly contradicts an often parroted theme regarding the Daniel Holtzclaw case: that he somehow picked his victims, poor black females in a bad part of town with a history of criminal activity, because he somehow knew that even if they reported his crimes, the police would never believe them or take their complaint seriously.

The reality though is completely in contrast to that theme, and it's something Holtzclaw would have known. There is an immediate flurry of activity initiated from the officers at the scene. They take the complaint extremely seriously. Calls go out to dispatch for a watch commander, the supervisor in-turn contacts additional officers, each with their own specific task. By 4:00 a.m. no less than a dozen officers are either on scene, in route, or working directly behind the scenes at a furious pace.

The lieutenant over sex crimes has been contacted. And the grandmother, who has now been identified as 57 year old Jannie Ligons, has been transported back over to Northeast 50th in Lincoln, to point out exactly where she says she was sexually assaulted.

(16:17) Detective Kim Davis is a veteran Oklahoma City police officer. She's at home asleep with her husband, who is also an Oklahoma City police officer, and a member of the department's swat team. Davis is a detective with the sex crimes unit, and she's on-call this night for any sex crimes complaints. When she's reached by telephone, she instructs officers to take Jannie Ligons to Southwest Medical Center.

Detective Davis says that she'll get dressed and then come take Ligons's statement at the hospital. Detective Davis is one of at least three Oklahoma City police officers that have starring roles throughout this podcast for the prosecution. More about her in a moment. When Ligons arrives at the hospital, she is subjected to the unfortunate reality of a SANE Test, also known as a rape kit.

The nurse asks very intimate and embarrassing questions, but it gets even more personal. Ligons is fortunate, if that's even the right word, In some regard. She claims the sexual assault was limited to her being forced to perform oral sex upon the officer. So the poking and prodding of the nurse is limited to swabs taken of the inside of her mouth. If prosecutors are lucky, they will find conclusive evidence of sexual contact.

(17:33) Ligons is also asked to write down her account of exactly what happened during the traffic stop. I don't want to rely on me being able to accurately and objectively retell what Ligons claims happened to her during the traffic stop. So I've asked Trina, a professional voice actress, to read directly from Jannie Ligons handwritten statement.

Black Female (Ligons’ Written Statement): (17:55) I was going down 50th passing Kelly. I noticed car lights on the side of me. As he got a little closer, I noticed it was the police. He got behind me. As I passed the lights on Lincoln, he turned his lights on. I pulled over at the building by 50th and Lincoln. He stopped behind me, got out of his car and came to my car. My window wouldn't go down, so I had to open my door. He said, "I see where you were swerving. Have you've been drinking?" I told him, "No sir, I don't drink." He told me to get out of my car. I was following him. He said, "Are you sure you haven't been drinking? I said, "No sir, I don't drink." He asked if there was alcohol in my cup in my car. I said, "No sir, it is Kool-Aid." He said, "If it is alcohol, I'm going to arrest you." I said, "You can taste it yourself. It's only Kool-Aid." Then he had me walk to his car, had me put my hands on his car, spread my legs, and began searching me. He asked, "Do you have any illegal drugs on you?" I said, "No, sir." He checked my pockets. Then he told me to sit in his car. He opened the back door and I got in. Then he said, "Are you sure there isn't anything illegal in your car, because if there is, I'm taking you to jail." I said, "No sir." He shut the car door. Then he went to my car, the driver's side. Then he looked for a minute, then he came back and opened the door. He asked, "How do I know you don't have anything in your bra?" I told him I didn't. I asked if he wanted me to raise my shirt. He said, "Yes." I raised my shirt up to my bra and he took his flashlight and shined it on my chest. Then he took his hands to his private parts and started messing with it. I put my shirt down. Then he asked if anything was in my pants. He wanted me to pull my pants down. I told him, "I couldn't do that." I put my pants down to my knees. I kept my panties on. Then I put my pants back on. A car pulled into the parking lot, but then left. When the car left, he unzipped his pants and pulled his penis out. I was sitting in the car with my feet outside the car. He said, "Damn girl, you got a big booty." When his penis is out, I turned to the side. I said, "Please, you can't do this." I was afraid he was going to kill me. I looked and saw he was blond headed. He said, "Come on, I don't have all night. I just got off work. I want to go home, I'm tired." Another car drived by but didn't stop. That's when he held his penis in his hand, and it was hard. He put his penis in my face. He said, "Come on or I'll take you to jail." I leaned down and put his penis in my mouth like a second. I thought he was going to shoot me! I was scared! I was frantic! I could see his gun on his side. Then he told me, "Come on, just a minute. Then I promise I'll let you go." So I put it in my mouth for 10 seconds, then he moved back. Then I got up and went to my car. I kept saying, "Thank you sir." I was begging for my life, when I got to my car, he said, "I'm going to follow you to your daughter's house." I was in my car. He went so fast. He was gone. So then I got my phone and drove to my daughter's house.

Brian Bates: (21:03) Shortly thereafter, Detective Davis arrives at the hospital and takes a statement from Jannie Ligons. Davis, an almost 30 year veteran of the Oklahoma City Police Department at the time, is originally from Bethany, Oklahoma. She attended high school in Oklahoma City and graduated college from the University of Central Oklahoma in Edmond. Upon graduation, Davis worked for a time as an office secretary. She didn't like it, too boring, she says.

(21:30) I'm going to pause for just a second here to introduce the source of this next soundbite and another one that comes a little later of Detective Rocky Gregory. These clips are from an investigative documentary by conservative blogger, author and journalist, Michelle Malkin. Malkin is a tireless advocate for Daniel Holtzclaw and she produced a really great documentary about this case. It's called Daniel in the Den: the truth about the Daniel Holtzclaw case. I can't recommend enough that you watch it. I've even put a link at the bottom of my website at holtzclawtrial.com. Now, here's a clip of Detective Davis describing her decision to become a police officer.

Kim Davis: (22:11) Um, and I just ... it was boring and I needed something exciting. I'm kind of an adrenaline junkie and I wanted something different every day and something exciting. And so I applied to be a police officer.

Brian Bates: Davis was assigned to patrol and rode around in a scout car.

Kim Davis: So I did that for 11 years. And then I went into investigations and I was lucky enough to go straight into sex crimes, because that was my ultimate choice of of investigation.

Brian Bates: Davis joined the sex crimes unit in March of 2001. Detective Davis steps into a small room at the hospital and introduces herself to Ligons who is later described as sitting alone on a hospital bed and weeping.

(22:55) Davis starts by getting some background information from Ligons. Ligons is 57 years old, she has four grown kids and 12 grandkids. Ligons is currently employed part-time at a small daycare center where she and at least one of her daughters also works. Ligons says she has no medical problems, is not on any medications, and has no history of mental health issues.

(23:20) According to Detective Davis's notes, Ligons says she has no victim history, but according to my investigation that is not true. There are at least two past cases naming Ligons as the victim of domestic abuse and a case where Ligons reported a stolen car. In one of the cases where Ligons made allegations of assault and battery against another person, the location given was in the 5300 of North Lincoln Boulevard. This is just a couple of blocks north from where she alleges she was assaulted by Holtzclaw.

(23:52) Also according to Detective Davis's notes, Ligons disclosed she was arrested in 1985 but no charges were ever filed. In reality, there's a little more to that. For starters, it appears the arrest was actually in 1988. And the charge? Well, it was for possession of crack cocaine with the intent to distribute. That's legal talk for being a drug dealer. While the case is from the 80s, and charges were never fully pursued, I'm not exactly certain what relevance it has to this case. But I do find it interesting that Detective Davis downplayed it in her report as if it was something much more minor.

Ligons also said that she lives with her boyfriend of approximately 20 years, Richard Long. She refers to him as her fiance. The two of them have had financial difficulties for a while now. They've both been sued multiple times over debts owed with Richard having the more extensive list of small claims actions taken against him.

With the background information complete, Detective Davis has Ligons provide additional details about the traffic stop.

(25:01) Ligons offers up these details that were not in her handwritten note. She said she went to a male friend of her's house around 7:30. She refers to the man as Mac. Mac lives in the area of Northeast 46th and Prospect very near the Springlake Station. Ligons says her friend Diane was also there too.

Ligons says that while she was there, she played cards and she played dominoes.

(25:26) Ligons also admitted to Detective Davis that she smoked two marijuana joints, something that she admits she lied to Holtzclaw about when he questioned her about any drug use during the traffic stop.

Ligons claims that she did not drink any alcohol while she was at Mac's house. She also said that she took two, quote unquote, p.m. pills around 12:30 because she had a headache, and then she laid down to take a nap. Ligons said she left Mac's house around 2:00 a.m. She and her boyfriend share the same car together, and her boyfriend has to be at work, and she usually takes him to work around 4:15.

Ligons said that when she left Mac's House, she drove past her elderly mother's home just a block or so away.

(26:09) She said it was while headed westbound on Northeast 50th that she realized that there was a police car behind her. Ligons claims that the police car pulled up next to her and then fell in behind following her. Ligons says she was pulled over as she drove through the intersection of Northeast 50th and Lincoln heading west.

(26:28) Much of what Ligons says next was covered in her handwritten account you previously heard. That said, Ligons repeated her written statement and said the officer made her put her hands on his patrol car while he patted her down. Regarding the sexual assault itself, Ligons offered the following additional details: (26:46) Ligons claims that Holtzclaw almost instantaneously took out his penis and exposed it from his unzipped, yet still buckled uniform pants. This will prove difficult to believe once it's revealed on a future episode, exactly what officer Holtzclaw is wearing under his uniform, and exactly how difficult it is for him to simply expose himself when using the restroom.

Ligons said that after she got into her car, the officer made a quick U-turn and then drove away at a high rate of speed. She at first thought the officer had taken her cell phone because she couldn't find it. She later discovered it was in her driver's seat and she was simply sitting on it.

(27:27) Ligons said she drove straight home to her daughter's apartment, which is about 15 minutes away. When she got home, everyone was asleep and she immediately woke her daughter, Marisa Ligons, up. Ligons told Marisa what had allegedly happened to her during the traffic stop. Ligons says that Marisa repeatedly tried to call the Springlake briefing station, but got no answer.

Ligons said that, quote, she, her daughter, her daughter's kids and her daughter's boyfriend, all got in the car and drove to the Springlake station. When they got to the station, the building was dark, locked up, and they couldn't find anyone on the property. According to Detective Davis's report, Ligons says they got back into her daughter's car and started to drive home. Detective Davis says that Ligons told her that her intent was to go home and to call a cousin of hers that is also a Springlake patrol officer by the name of Anthony Carter.

(28:21) As they drove towards their house, they saw a couple of patrol cars on Lincoln Boulevard in a parking lot just north of 50th. They stopped and reported what happened to those officers. Ligons described the officer to Detective Davis as white, 35 to 45 years old, 5'7" to 5'9", 225 pounds with a thick build, blonde hair parted near the middle, no facial hair, no glasses, and skin that is not smooth as if it's been scarred from acne. She said she didn't recall if the officer had pubic hair, but does recall that he was circumcised. Ligons says that the officer at no time threatened physical harm.

She said the officer was driving a newer model, all black patrol car with the word police in white letters.

Detective Davis next introduces Ligons to the YWCA, a victim's advocate, and offers the only support she feels she can at this time, that she will do her very best to investigate her allegations.

(29:20) In later news interviews, Detective Davis will claim that she works about a 100 sex cases each year. She also has admitted in more than one media interview that false sexual assault allegations against Oklahoma City police officers is fairly routine. She claims she personally works about one a month. She also says that the motive for false sexual assault allegations is pretty predictable, to get out of a ticket or an arrest, to get back at a bully police officer, and-or to make some money through a lawsuit or settlement.

Despite that reality, Detective Davis ignores the fact that she hasn't even verified any of Ligons's claims and hasn't even identified or spoken to a suspect yet. But she has already decided that Ligons is telling her the truth. Detective Davis said this to a local news television station when asked about her interview of Jannie Ligons.

Kim Davis: (30:15) When I first responded and talked to Miss Ligons, my gut told me something happened, and my heart broke.

Brian Bates: You know, I bet it's a pretty safe bet that every person who has been convicted only later to be exonerated was ultimately put in prison because the detective had a gut instinct that turned out to be wrong.

(30:40) Davis would later go on the record and say that the way Ligons looked, cried and answered her questions is what convinced her that Ligons was telling the truth. However, and conveniently enough, Detective Davis made no attempt to audio or video record Ligons's apparent compelling statements. In fact, she went so far as to later lie to the media when she told them that it's against police policy to record victims of sexual assault. A lie that was easily uncovered by the simple fact, Detective Davis later does audio and video record statements from several of Holtzclaw's accusers.

(31:19) While still at the hospital, Detective Davis takes the opportunity to interview Jannie Ligons's adult daughter, Marisa. According to Marisa, Jannie has lived with her since November of 2013. Marisa said that she called Jannie at max house around 9:47 p.m. on June 17th to ask her something about the washing machine. Marisa said her mother arrived home about 2:42 in the morning on June 18th. Marisa said that when her mother arrived at the apartment, she was asleep, but that her mother woke her up and that she was acting like a, quote, "Scared little child." Ligons then recounted the traffic stop to her daughter. Marisa repeated what Jannie had said, that she had tried to call the Springlake Station but got no answer. Detective Davis noted that Marisa said, quote, "They got into the car and drove to the Springlake station." These quotes will take more relevance and more importance later on in additional episodes when the stories start to change. Marisa claims that while in route she continued to try to reach someone at Springlake. She said after leaving the Springlake Station, they noticed a couple of patrol cars by the Lincoln Inn just north of North East 50th and Lincoln Boulevard. Marisa said that one of the cars parked in the parking lot matched the description of the newer model patrol car that her mother said had pulled her over. Marisa said that they pulled up and that her mother verified that it wasn't the officer driving that car that had pulled her over and assaulted her earlier. They then all got out of the car and reported the sexual assault to the officers.

(32:56) Davis then leaves the hospital around 5:30 a.m. and heads to northeast 50th and Lincoln. When Davis arrives, several other officers are on the scene or working other potential leads. Detective Davis meets up with her supervisor, Lieutenant Tim Muzny and another detective, Robert High.

(33:15) Oklahoma City police Lieutenant Brian Taylor is also on the scene. Lieutenant Taylor had arrived early on in the investigation and had been briefed on the allegations from Ligons's perspective and even spoke directly to Ligons prior to her being taken to Southwest Medical Center. Lieutenant Taylor then proceeded to Northeast 50th and Lincoln. There Taylor noticed that the closest building, the old Surety Life Insurance Building had several exterior security cameras. He then began walking around the property looking for an alarm permit number so it could be utilized to locate a responsible party for the property that might have access to the building's cameras. As he walked behind the building, he stops dead in his tracks. Right there in front of him is a black newer model patrol car parked next to the building. Lieutenant Taylor was able to match the patrol cars equipment number to a third shift officer, Sergeant Walters. Taylor then located sergeant Walters contact number and called him. When he reached Sergeant Walters, he learned that Walters was actually working off duty as security for the building overnight and was still inside. Taylor asked Walters to step outside. Lieutenant Taylor naturally thought Sergeant Walters might be the officer who had stopped Jannie Ligons just a couple of hours ago. Taylor asked Walters when he began his shift? 7:00 p.m. Lieutenant Taylor asked Walters if he had performed a traffic stop around 2:00 a.m. in front of the building. Walters said he had not. Taylor then asked if he could review the security camera footage and Walters complied. Taylor learned that camera number 31 would have been overlooking the traffic stop.

Sergeant Walters tells Taylor that the security camera system automatically shuts down at 2:00 a.m. and has to be manually rebooted. When Sergeant Walters brings up the footage, there is a gap from 2:00 a.m. until 2:02 a.m., because of the reboot. However, when the cameras come back online at 2:02 you can see two vehicles stopped in front of the building. One appears to be a patrol car with its strobe lights on. Unfortunately the screen is small and the quality of the footage is poor, but it's their only independent eye witness so they make arrangements to get a copy of the footage. Lieutenant Taylor also has sergeant Walters play back footage of the security camera that is pointed at his police cruiser. Taylor notes that Sergeant Walters's patrol car never moves. Remember that name, Lieutenant Brian Taylor. It will have some significance in a future episode.

(35:48) Detective Davis, Lieutenant Muzny and other officers canvas the area seeking out additional surveillance footage. Eventually Davis heads back to headquarters where several records clerks are busy pulling every file they have on every officer who has been assigned a take home, newer model patrol car.

(36:07) When Detective Davis arrives back at police headquarters, she's met by Lieutenant Muzny, who informs her that he had pulled photos of all of the second shift patrol officers and that he and Gregory were, quote, "Ready to show the victim a lineup. After reviewing the lineup, Detective Davis was not happy with the lineup. She requested that we meet with Deputy Chief Coleman and discuss other options," end quote. I find that statement very interesting, but also very troubling. Earlier you heard how Detective Davis has already prematurely decided that Jannie Ligons is telling the truth, even though not a single piece of evidence has been collected and scrutinized. Now we have Detective Davis intentionally setting aside, I'd argue even obstructing the use of, a very common investigative tool. You have to ask yourself, why would you be afraid to ask a woman who spent 15 minutes with her alleged attacker not to positively identify that attacker from a photo lineup? (37:12) We later learn that investigators feared none of Holtzclaw's attackers would be able to pick him out until they are told and shown through news media reports exactly what he looks like. What you'll see in the future, only one of Holtzclaw's accusers are ever shown a photo lineup, and that person is unable to positively identify Daniel as their attacker.

(37:35) While at police headquarters, Davis then attended a meeting of high ranking officers specifically gathered to discuss Ligons's allegations. Attending the meeting was Lieutenant Muzny, Deputy Chief Coleman, Major Winzel, a few miscellaneous officers, and a sex crimes detective for the last five years named Rocky Gregory. (37:56) Detective Gregory grew up in a farm in Ames, Oklahoma in the Northwest part of the state. Gregory attended Northeastern State University where he received his bachelor's degree in Criminal Justice. Detective Gregory will soon become code lead detective in the case of Oklahoma versus Daniel Holtzclaw. This is Detective Gregory talking about his lifelong desire to become a police officer.

Rocky Gregory: (38:21) I always wanted to be a cop. I grew up watching John Wayne movies and things. And got on the department in 2000, and work my way into becoming a detective and like him I just wanted to be a sex crimes detective. So I had a year in domestic violence and then went into sex crimes and then eventually homicide. But, I got on sex crimes, because I've three daughters and I just felt very protective of them, and I felt like I had that kind of protection that I like to kind of show others, a little bit too.

Brian Bates: During the meeting, the deputy chief advises that they have pulled a list of all Oklahoma City police officers who drive the newer model 2013, all black patrol car. The list is pretty short. They have utilized the automatic vehicle locator that tracks all patrol cars. They said when they sought the whereabouts of those officers around 2:00 a.m. that drive the newer model patrol car, only one officer was unaccounted for. An officer that had only been with the force for a little less than three years. That officer's name was Daniel Holtzclaw.

Brian Bates: (39:03) Detective Davis asked Detective Gregory about a complaint he worked recently where another black female, in the Northeast side of Oklahoma City, claimed that she too had been sexually assaulted by a police officer. Detective Gregory explains that the woman, Terri Morris, a 43 year old homeless drug addict, has been difficult to locate for followup interviews and when she is located, she's often uncooperative.

Detective Davis wonders out loud if there could be a connection with that case to this case. She notes that they should ask Holtzclaw about Morris if they indeed decide to interview him. (40:14) The deputy chief makes it clear during the meeting that Chief Citty is personally keeping tabs on this investigation as reported by the Oklahoman newspaper, quote, "Lieutenant Muzny pulls Detective Davis aside and tells her the eyes of the Department are on her and that," quote, "with the department already struggling with relations in the minority community that they know how explosive something like this could be," end quote.

(40:40) They collectively decide that Holtzclaw is their suspect, and they need to question him, and they need to question him soon. They decide that the easiest way to confront him is to wait until he shows up for his next patrol shift in just a few hours.

After the meeting, Detective Davis makes some phone calls to try and locate Ligons. She wants to see if she can locate any evidence backing up Ligons's claims and placing Holtzclaw at the scene. Detective Davis learns that Ligons has gone to a relative's house on Northeast 55th. So Detectives Davis, High and a CSI tech, drive there and tell Ligons they'd like to forensically examine her cell phone and car for fingerprints or possibly even DNA. Ligons agrees and hands over her phone. She explains to Davis however that her car is still with her boyfriend, Richard Long Jr., and it's parked at his job. After Davis has Ligons's cell phone processed for fingerprints, the investigators head to the Chesapeake Energy Campus on Northwestern avenue in Oklahoma City.

There they process Ligons's and Long's shared vehicle. Detective Davis and the technician spend about an hour photographing the vehicle and taking samples of possible fingerprint or DNA trace evidence. After finishing processing the red 2004 Grand Am, Davis heads back to headquarters to see how the records searches are going and to meet up with detective Gregory. They already have plans to be at the Springlake Briefing Station before Holtzclaw arrives for his patrol shift starting at 4:00 p.m.

(42:13) When the detectives arrive at the Springlake Station, they slip into the major's office and brief the higher ups as to what's going on and that they want to interview Holtzclaw in depth, but they don't want to make a scene. The following is some audio that was done by Oklahoman reporter, Adam Kemp, regarding Kim Davis and Rocky Gregory showing up at the Springlake station.

Kim Davis: (42:35) We got to line up at like 3:30 for Holtzclaw, because he reports to work, he has to be there by four. So we got there early, spoke with his captain. What kind of officer is he? Hard worker, confirm that he drove an all black vehicle, confirm that he worked that night. And we did check his file later and stuff, but just kind of getting the basics.

Brian Bates: Shortly thereafter, Holtzclaw arrives for his shift. He sees the commotion going on in the Major's office, but doesn't pay much attention to it, but then he's motioned to join them. Holtzclaw's introduced to Detective Davis and Gregory. He's never met them before, but he recalls Davis may have spoke to his class during one of his police academy trainings.

(42:23)The two detectives keep it friendly and cordial. Holtzclaw is asked if he made an off the clock traffic stop near Northeast 50th and Lincoln, and Holtzclaw without hesitation says that he did. Detectives Davis and Gregory say that there's been some sort of allegations stemming from that stop, and they need to take him downtown to talk to him privately and try to clear things up. Holtzclaw has been questioned about allegations of excessive use of force in the past, and he's always been cleared. He assumes this is just another one of those cases, and he agrees to ride with the detectives back to headquarters.

(43:58) Before Holtzclaw leaves the Springlake briefing station, the detectives tell him that they need to take a photo of him to be used in a photo lineup, standard procedure. So Holtzclaw agrees. But as I pointed out earlier, this photo will never be used.

Holtzclaw walks out of the Springlake station still armed with his service revolver. Detectives directed him to their unmarked sedan. Holtzclaw gets up front while detective Gregory drives. The conversation is casual. Holtzclaw's previous college football career at Eastern Michigan State University, Holtzclaw's time with the OCPD gang unit, anything except for the real reason they have come to talk to him. They want to wait until they'd get him Mirandized into what they call the box.

(44:44) Moments after they've pulled away, Detective High gets into officer Holtzclaw's patrol car. It will be driven to what is referred to as the evidence barn. There, experts in their field will scour over Holtzclaw's patrol vehicle for any evidence: fingerprints, DNA ... Common sense would tell you that detectives should be looking for anything that would prove or disprove Ligons's allegations, but it will soon become all too clear that investigators are solely focused on proving Holtzclaw is a sexual serial predator and they will ignore all the evidence to the contrary.

As Holtzclaw enters the interrogation room, Rocky Gregory sets the scene.

Rocky Gregory: (45:25) Welcome to our domain.

Brian Bates: (45:28) This is where I'm going to conclude this week's episode. Next week, I hope you'll join me for the interrogation of Oklahoma City patrol officer Daniel Holtzclaw.

In the meantime, keep an open mind and remember, you've only heard one side of these allegations so far. After Holtzclaw's interrogation, you start to get a more complete picture of whose story is actually backed up by the forensic evidence. We will also be getting into the Terry Morris allegations, and you'll hear evidence that was exclusively obtained by Bates investigates that was never played at Daniel Holtzclaw's trial.

This serialized podcast of Oklahoma versus Daniel Holtzclaw follows the timeline and perspective of the investigation, but with the scrutiny of the defense. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to subscribe and give us a five star review.

If you'd like to know more and see many of the files used to compile this episode, please visit this season's homepage at holtzclawtrial.com. You can also follow updates on our Facebook page at indefenseofdanielholtzclaw or on Twitter @holtzclawtrial. Bates Investigates Season One: The Daniel Holtzclaw Case is researched, produced, and edited by me, Brian Bates.

This has been a Bug Stomper production.

EPISODE 2



Bates Investigates

Episode 2 ׀Daniel Holtzclaw: The Interrogation

 

[OPENING MUSIC]

 

Disclaimer: This podcast deals with adult subject matter, including depictions of drug addiction, prostitution, sexual assault, and rape.  Parental guidance is suggested.

 

00:37[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE]

 

Newscaster: Officer Daniel Holtzclaw, with the Police Department for three years, is accused of raping and sexually assaulting women he pulled over while on the job.

 

Jannie Ligons: He said, ‘Come on, come on, just a minute, just a minute’.  I say, ‘Sir, I can’t do this’.  I say, ‘you gonna shoot...’

 

Det. Kim Davis: Tell me your description of him.

 

Sherri Ellis: He’s black.

 

Det. Kim Davis: He’s b—okay, he’s a black male.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What did your daughter tell you?

 

Amanda Gates: She said, ‘I met this really hot cop’.

 

Shardayreon Hill: So, this is good evidence?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Well, you tell me.

 

[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE ENDS]

 

Timestamp: The following episode contains investigative events which occurred on June 18, 2014.

 

01:23

Host:Welcome back to Season One of Bates Investigates, the podcast.  I am your host, Oklahoma native and licensed Private Investigator, Brian Bates.  But more importantly to this story, I was a member of the defendant’s original criminal defense team.  This is the serialized podcast of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw.  This is an exceptionally lengthy episode.  You may have noticed in the podcast description that this particular episode comes in at about two hours.  If you are a true crime podcast fan, you’re probably use to these interrogations being edited down for time and content.  In this case though, I think it’s important to provide the entirety of this interrogation so that you don’t get the opinion that I’ve somehow cherry picked what to include or exclude, based on some sort of bias that I have. That being said, if you don’t have the time or the interest in listening to a two hour interrogation, you can jump to the next episode where I will be providing a condensed version of the interrogation with my comments and opinions.  I’m also putting the full length video version of this interrogation on this season’s homepage at holtzclawtrial.com, if you want to see Daniel’s body language, get more insights as to interrogation techniques, or just something more than what you can get with just the audio version.  With all that out of the way, I’m going to just jump right into it.  You will recall from the last episode that Sex Crimes Detectives Kim Davis and Rocky Gregory had just confronted Patrol Officer Holtzclaw at the Springlake Briefing Station just before his 4:00pm line-up.  Davis and Gregory told Holtzclaw that there was a fifty-seven year old black female who was making claims against him regarding an off-the-clock traffic stop he performed around 2:00am that very morning.  Holtzclaw admitted to the traffic stop and agreed to go with the detectives downtown to be questioned.  Once the three arrived at headquarters, Holtzclaw was relieved of his Glock service revolver and it was stored away in Lieutenant Muzny’s desk drawer. Lieutenant Muzny is Detective Davis and Gregory’s boss.

 

03:26

I’m going to let this play virtually in its entirety.  The only editing I have done is to occasionally add my voiceover to describing anything of significance going on, to edit out any long periods of silence when detectives leave Holtzclaw alone in the room, and I’ve also edited out Holtzclaw saying his girlfriend’s cell phone number and place of employment.  The scene opens with Holtzclaw being led to what is often referred to as The Box.  It’s a tiny, windowless room, with a simple table sandwiched next to a very basic office chair that Holtzclaw actually has trouble fitting his massive physique into. This room is intentionally not a comfortable or inviting space.  From the looks of it, it appears to measure out at about eight by eight.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory:Welcome to our domain.  Now, what’s your first name?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Daniel.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Daniel.  Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Daniel, just have a sit in here.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Which seat would you like me in?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You gotta piss or anything?  You can have a sit there.  That’s probably more comfortable.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I mean, I can hold it, I’m not—

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:[laughing]

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I’m just…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:All right, I’m gonna move right on out.  Uh, whatever’s more comfortable, man.  

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:That’ll work.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Host:At this point, Holtzclaw has entered the tiny interrogation room with Detective Rocky Gregory.  Holtzclaw literally looks a little confused as he looks down at the chair and seems to think to himself, how am I going to shoehorn myself, with my duty belt on, into that?  Almost immediately Detective Gregory excuses himself leaving Holtzclaw sitting uncomfortably and alone for almost a minute and a half.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

05:11

Det. Kim Davis:[laughing] No chair for me.  Let me bring a chair.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:There’s…

 

[Det. Kim Davis exits room and re-enters with chair]

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I was going to say there’s a chair right there.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Huh?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I was going to say there’s a chair right there.

 

Det. Kim Davis:No, but I had, uh, back surgery.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis:A year ago.  Rocky’s coming, but he ain’t here yet.  And I had a back fusion.  Oh, this is about the only chair I can sit in.  I don’t know what.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Does that help your back support?

 

Det. Kim Davis:It does.  Well, no, it gives.  It’s, um, it’s very giving.  I’m turning this off because I don’t want this bugging us.  [beeping noise]  And, not to be yucky, but it’s low back where my back fusion is and I can put my butt right there.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis:So my tailbone’s not getting extra pressure on it.  I don’t know. It, it—I can’t sit in one of those. It’ll kill me.  Okay, Rocky’s coming.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis:But I’m going to do this while—and he may walk in here in a minute—and get this done.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Uh, now, I know you’re an officer and I know you’ve seen these a thousand times.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis:And you’ve read them yourself.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis:You still ask my any questions if you have one.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay?  Don’t be embarrassed of that.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I think I’m already embarrassed [laughing] cause…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Why are you embarrassed?  Why?  Tell me why you’re embarrassed.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:The station deal, so…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Nobody, well, I mean, there’s rumors flying.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Like, everyone [laughing]…

 

Det. Kim Davis:I know.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Everyone.

 

Det. Kim Davis:And we tried to do that as kind of quietly as we could, and that’s why we took you out the front and stuff, but this is gonna make the rumors go away.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  For you.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis:The rumor tomorrow is going to be on somebody else.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Does that make sense?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis:So, let’s get them off of you.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis:And get them on to somebody else and get this over with.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay?  All right.  You have the right to remain silent.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis:You understand that?  Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of law.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Do you understand that?  You have the right to talk to a lawyer and have him or her present with you while you’re being questioned.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Do you understand that?

 

Det. Kim Davis:If you cannot afford to hire an attorney, one will be appointed to represent you before any questioning if you wish one.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Host:That noise you just heard was Detective Rocky Gregory as he slipped into the room and took a seat just off camera.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

07:47

Det. Kim Davis:If you decide to make a statement, you may stop the interview at any time.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Do you understand each of these rights I’ve explained to you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I do.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Just write ‘yes’ or ‘I do’ or whatever right th—oh, you’re a lefty too.  Okay, hold on.  You shoot right handed but you write left handed?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Yeah, I’m ambidextrous.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Me too.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:A little bit.

 

Det. Kim Davis:I shoot right hand and write left handed. That’s—how—which do you, um…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I bat right handed and throw left handed.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Oh, I’m the opposite.  I throw right handed but I bat left handed.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I kick left footed.

 

Det. Kim Davis:No, I kick right footed. How do you eat?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Both hands.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Oh, left for me.  Okay, having these rights in mind, do you wish to talk to me—uh, us—at this time without an attorney present?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Yes.  That’s fine.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay, write ‘yes’ right there.  Read this out loud.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:[clears throat] I have read the statement of my rights and understand what my rights are.  I am willing to make a statement and answer any questions at this time.  I do not want a attorney present at this time.  I understand and know that what I’m doing, no promises or threats have been made to me, and no pressure or force of any kind has been used against me.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Agree?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Agree.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Sign.  Print.  [pen scratching]  That’s too funny.  I haven’t met anybody else that writes left handed and—it kind of creates a problem when you’re on a traffic stop, doesn’t it?  Because you’re writing and…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:What?  The ticket book?

 

Det. Kim Davis:…holding your ticket book in this hand and your gun hand.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No, it doesn’t bother me.

 

Det. Kim Davis:It doesn’t bother you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:It doesn’t bother me.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Well, that’s because you’re huge. [laughing]  What’s your commission number?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:1782.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I masturbate right and left.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Oh, [laughing].

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Does that work?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:[laughing]

 

Det. Kim Davis: Oh, I think I do that left handed.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Very good.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Well, I am dominant left.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You are?

 

Det. Kim Davis: Yes.  [long pause]  Okay, lo—just like I—we talked in the car.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Uh, you haven’t heard any rumors?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I haven’t heard any rumors.

 

Det. Kim Davis:So you…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:So, when I walked in the station, I see Captain lean over, not unusual for Captain Clifton, hey, but, um… I kn—I’ve seen you and the Captain.  I’ve never seen you, and so…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I’m a nobody.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:But I haven’t heard anything.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:So, I’m just looking at things.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You, you had said, and we told you that, that there was a traffic stop.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: That somebody made some allegations against an officer.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: They don’t know the officer’s name. They don’t—none of that.  Th—and you said that you made a traffic stop after work.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: But you didn’t call it in.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I didn’t call it in.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Where was that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:It was about Northeast Fiftieth and Lincoln, just to the west.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Tell me about that stop.

 

10:22

Daniel Holtzclaw: I was going westbound on Northeast Fiftieth, probably a block just east of, uh, Lincoln, I see a red Grand Prix, or Grand Am, in my right lane—in the outside lane, I’m on in the inside lane—the car swerves, and so at the time I’m thinking okay it’s probably a drunk person or maybe got excited cause he saw a cop.  So, I kind of f—fall behind it, kind of drifting just a little bit, not crossing lane lines, nothing crazy, so I light it up.  Because it, at first, the first traffic violation I saw at first, when it swerved.  And that was just west of, uh, Northeast Fiftieth and Lincoln.  And then, made contact.  It was a black female.  Um, asked for license and insurance.  Um, stated that she didn’t have insurance, gave me an ID.  At the time, I’m like, ‘Do you have a valid insurance or valid license?’ She said, ‘No.’  I told her, ‘I just got off work, I mean, [laughing], what’s the deal?  You know, why, why you swerving?’  And she says, uh, ‘I’m just trying to go home to Ann Arbor-ish on the northwest side…’ to see her daughter or something like that.  Um, so, I asked, ‘Is there anything on board as far as the vehicle? Is it okay if I search your vehicle?’ And whatnot.  And she said, ‘The only thing that’s inside there is a kool aid cup.’  I’m like, ‘Is there anything inside of that kool aid?  Is there liquor or anything inside that kool aid?’  She’s, ‘No.’  I’m like, ‘Okay, is there anything else inside there?’  She says, ‘There’s pills.’  I’m like, ‘Is that the only thing?’  And then, so, I was, like, ‘Can I have permission to search your car?’  She says yes.  I go inside the car and see a lot of pills.  But, uh…

 

Det. Kim Davis: What kind of pills?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I didn’t really…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Like scattered pills or in a bottle pills?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:She said it’s hydrocodone pills, but I just quickly glanced, looked at it, I think I saw her name on the prescription bottle, so I didn’t…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Oh, so it was a bottle?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Oh, okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:There was several bottles in her purse.  And then, so, at that time, I just returned back to her.  Was, like, um, ‘Okay, I saw your pills.  I didn’t see any alcohol.  I sniffed the drink, didn’t smell any alcohol in the kool aid.’  I’m like, ‘Okay, I’m—I’m just off work.  I’m tired.  Um, get your license taken care of.’

 

12:31

Det. Kim Davis: So, she didn’t have a driver’s license?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:She didn’t have a driver’s license. And I was just, like, ‘Go to DPS. Uh, Department of Public Safety, on King.  Get that taken care of.’  And I cut her loose after that.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Then where’d you go?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Then went straight home.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Um… do you remember her name?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I don’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis: It was on the prescription bottle.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I don’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, um, do you make traffic stops normally after work?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I don’t, but in that case I saw her swerve and whatnot, so I…

 

Det. Kim Davis: I mean, me.  I don’t.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:…felt [laughing].

 

Det. Kim Davis: After I get off work.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I know, I mean, people.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I mean, the last thing I’d want’s a DUI.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Cops, they just have a, you know, whatnot.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Whatever.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:They have a vision. Whatever.  But I felt like I needed to make that traffic stop.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, how was she?  Was she respectful?  Was she not?  Was she…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:She felt like she was nervous and whatnot, and I’m like, ‘Why are you nervous?’  And she was even crying.  I’m like, ‘Why are you crying?  Why are you nervous?’  Whatnot, and she just like, ‘I don’t know.  I’m just nervous because you’re a cop and I got pulled over.’  I’m like, ‘Nothing you’ve got to be nervous about.’ And I told her, I’m like, ‘I don’t really want to take you to jail for no SDL or anything.  I just got off work.  I’m tired.’  So, with my officer, uh, courtesy, or whatnot, I said, ‘Go get that taken care of tomorrow’ and let her on her way.

 

Det. Kim Davis: That’s fine.  And you don’t have to ex—I’m not going to sit here and go, ‘Why didn’t you take her?’ da da da.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I could care less.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Well, that’s, that’s the reason why.

 

Det. Kim Davis: No.  I don’t care.  Uh, was she drunk?  Did you think she was drunk?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I think she was, I think she was, she drank.  But I don’t think she was—my experience, I don’t think she was past the legal limit.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Right.  Right.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:So…

 

Det. Kim Davis: So, I mean…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:And that’s what I asked her too, is, like, with your pain medicines, hydrocodone, every kno—everyone knows that you drink with that it maximizes the effect, so I asked her that.  She said no.  But I, when she was in the back of my car and when I was in the front car of the driver’s seat, I could smell it off of her, but I don’t think she was still past the legal limit.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Okay.  So you got her out of the car?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, uh, and put her in the back of your car?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, uh, any problems there?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No, she was cooperative.  Didn’t give me any problems or any whatnot.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, and then you searched—did you run her through Unit 800?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I didn’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You didn’t?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Unh uh.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So, did you run her on your MDT?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No, I didn’t.  All my, all my stuff as far as that—because I didn’t call it in and say I was on a traffic stop—my computer was off and everything as well.

 

15:01

Det. Kim Davis: Did you just shut if off after work?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I just shut it off, yeah, on my way. On Fiftieth I had turned it off right before the traffic stop basically.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, and where did you pick her up? Fiftieth and what about?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Fiftieth and Lincoln, just to the west.

 

Det. Kim Davis: But, now where’d you see her swerve kind of?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I’d say a block just to the east of, uh, Lincoln and Fiftieth.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, did she pull over right away?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: She was in the right lane, in the outside lane, when I saw her swerve, and so she saw a police car right there and so she kind of did what everyone does, slow down, kind of, ‘Okay, is he going to pull me over or not?’  And then I lit her up about Fiftieth and Lincoln, past the intersection to the west.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, when you, uh, when you put her in your car, did you pat search her?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, when I came here I was like, ‘Lift up your shirt.  Is there anything on you?  Anything as far as your waistband or anything like that?’  She said, ‘No’ and then I put her in the vehicle and went from there. I asked her everything.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did your hands go on her at all?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I backhanded—I backhanded on as far as the side.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Where on her body?  Tell me.  You backhanded.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Her waist.  Her waist and backwards.  I didn’t touch her butt or anything, but the back portion of her waist and then she lifted it up, like, right here and there’s nothing on it.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she lift it up like this?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, so she never, like, went woo!?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Nothing to expose her breasts or anything like that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.  She asked me if I was.  I was like, ‘No, that’s okay.’

 

Det. Kim Davis: She asked you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: If I--‘You want to search me?’  I’m like, ‘No, that’s okay.’

 

Det. Kim Davis: Oh, so she never, like, put her hands on the car and you [makes patting noise with mouth].

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.  No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Okay.  Uh, when you—where was she positioned or standing when you back, when you did your—the back of your hand on her?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: It was about probably the right, front right fender of the, of my patrol vehicle.

 

Det. Kim Davis: But did, was she facing you or was she turned around?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, she was facing away from me.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And you just kind of did it like this?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, backhand.  Yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, did you hand go on her butt or anything?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, that’s what I’m saying.  It was the hip, the side, not the butt section.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What about right here?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You didn’t?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.  I didn’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis: They can tuck a gun right here.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: That’s why I asked to lift it up.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Oh, so she just kind of showed you her belly?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.  Right. 

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, then you talked to her for a little bit?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: In the, well, you, after you searched her…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You put her in the back of the car.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Then, we use to always kind of keep the door open and talk when they’re not, like, combative or anything.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you talk to her and get information then while she was in the back of your car?

 

17:16

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.  I talked to her for a little bit just as far as, ‘What’s inside the vehicle?  Can I have consent to search your vehicle?’ Um, ‘Is there anything in that kool aid? She said, ‘No.’  Um, just talked to her and ‘What’s the deal?  Why are you driving late at two o’clock at night?’ You know.  ‘Why did you swerve?’  Uh, said she’s going to Ann Arbor on the northwest side to visit her daughter I believe.  So…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Then you went up and searched her car?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:After she gave me consent to search her car.

 

Det. Kim Davis: How long do you think?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I did a quick search to be honest with you.  I didn’t—I looked under the seat, boom, sniffed the—sniffed the juice, whatever she’s had and I didn’t smell alcohol on it.  I went through her purse like she said there’s—the  pills in it.  Looked through real quick to see if her name was there, and that was basically it.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, then when you went back to her…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What happened?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:When I went back to her I was like, ‘Okay, I didn’t smell any alcohol on your, your car and your juice thing.’ And I’m like, ‘What’s the deal? Are you really drunk or not?’  And she’s like, ‘No, I’m just trying to go back home.’  And at that time I was like, ‘Okay, look, I’ll go ahead and follow you.’  I said, ‘I’m not going to take you to jail.  I’m tired.  I’m not going to take you to jail.  I’ll go ahead and follow you and let’s go back to Forty-Four and you head westbound on Forty-Four.’  So, that’s what we did.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you follow her?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Actually, she—when I went behind her and we got in the car, she took forever and I started getting annoyed, so I just U-turned it and I went ahead and I saw in back view of my rearview mirror that she was following to Forty-Four, but then I took off going northbound on Broadway Extension while she took Forty-Four to go west.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So, you were able to see her do that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And go, and then when you, did you lose her when you got on Broadway?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:When I went to northbound on Broadway and she went Forty-Four west.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Okay.  All right. Well, she’s, it, it sounds like this is the lady.  I mean, this is the deal where she’s the complaining party.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, and she’s making some sexual allegations, obviously, because sex crimes is working it.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.  What’d she say?

 

Det. Kim Davis: Well, was there anything?  A accidental touch?  A anything?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:If she thought it, uh, when I pat searched her.  But I didn’t, it was nothing as far as—I felt like I didn’t do anything as far as sexual or anything like that.  For my safety, I just checked to see if the weapons or anything.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And maybe…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:And I…

 

Det. Kim Davis: …you had every right to do that.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:To make clear, I didn’t—didn’t touch her butt—but the waist side and whatnot.  If you would like me to do it in front of you to show you. [laughing]

 

Det. Kim Davis: No, and I’m fine.  I’m fine with it and you have every right to do that.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: She’s saying that you made her lift up her shirt and she—and when she lifted up her shirt she exposed her breasts.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No.  No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you ever see her breasts?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I asked her, ‘Is there’—I asked her, ‘Is there anything inside your bra?’ and she said, ‘No.’  So, I was like, okay, and she said, ‘Do you want me to show you?’ and at that time I said, ‘No, no.  You don’t need to do that.’

 

Det. Kim Davis: She said that.  She said do you want—she said she was doing this when you said, ‘Is there anything inside your bra?’ and she was going, ‘No, I don’t have anything.’  Like, did she do that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Yeah, she did, but I didn’t look or anything like, like that.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Right.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:And then she was like, ‘Do you want me to show you?’ and I was like, ‘No.’

 

Det. Kim Davis: She said when she said, ‘Do you want me to show you?’ you said, ‘Yeah’ and she went woo hoo.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No, I didn’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis: But could she have been woo hoo flashing you, and now you don’t want to tell me because you’re afraid you’re going to get in trouble?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No.  No, when I told her no, I said no.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Then she didn’t go whoop?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You know, because sometimes drunk girls are…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Having a good time…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Yeah, and…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.  No, that’s…

 

Det. Kim Davis: …partying down and let’s face it…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I’ve already heard stories about officers and whatnot...

 

Det. Kim Davis: …people….

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:…so I don’t want to.

 

Det. Kim Davis: … they want officers for hubbies or whatever.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I didn’t want, so I said no.  I said no.

 

Det. Kim Davis: But you could have said no, but I’m asking you if she flashed you anyways.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I didn’t see her.  I didn’t see her breasts.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You didn’t see no boobies?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I didn’t see her breasts.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Alright, what about pants?

 

21:02

Daniel Holtzclaw:Nothing in her pants as far as I could see, because she was wearing tight jeans so…

 

Det. Kim Davis: She said she pulled them down.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I didn’t see it.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You didn’t see her pull them down?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I didn’t see her pulling down pants.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Could she have done it when you were searching the car?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:She could have.  I didn’t have her.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she have them on when…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I didn’t have her handcuffed or anything.

 

Det. Kim Davis: When you came back to the car and got her out, were her pants fastened?  Were they?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Yeah, everything was still…

 

Det. Kim Davis: They were up and…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Everything was still intact and everything.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So you never saw her pull her pants down?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No, I didn’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Why do you think she’s making this up?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I don’t know.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you write her a ticket?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I didn’t.  I let her go and I said, I said, ‘I won’t even arrest you for your no SDL.’

 

Det. Kim Davis: I’m trying to figure out why she would say that.  I mean, I can see her saying it if you wrote her a ticket, because she’s pissed off.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Now, let me make it quite clear, if you saw her boobs, I don’t care, if she’s flashing you.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I did not see her breasts.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You did not see her boobies?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No, I did not see her breasts.

 

Det. Kim Davis: She’s saying you shined your light on her.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I did not see her breasts.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Where do you keep your flashlight?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:My left side, right here, right behind my radio.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you have your flashlight out on the traffic stop?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I did.

 

Det. Kim Davis: When she was going like this, did you have your flashlight on her?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I didn’t.  I didn’t go like that.  But I—as I’m on the—like this, I had it positioned over us, but I didn’t—as far as that.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Right, but did you have it on her when you’re talking to her so you can see her?  I mean, was it…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:To see if…

 

Det. Kim Davis: …on her when she goes like this? Maybe she could have construed that.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.  To see, to see her inside the vehicle.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Was the dome light on?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:The dome light was not on.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Oh, it doesn’t come on?  I don’t know how—does that come on when you open your back door?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Um.

 

Det. Kim Davis: It’s been too long since I’ve been in a scout car.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I can’t recall to be honest with you [laughing].  I don’t think the, I don’t think the back, I don’t think it does, as far as the dome light.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay. [long pause]  I’m just trying to figure out… how long do you think you were on that traffic stop?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I don’t think it was…

 

Det. Kim Davis: And, it’s not a test.  Just…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:…in excess over a, a regular sp—fifteen minutes at most, just like a regular traffic stop.  Nothing as far as more.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Fifteen minutes.  How long were you with her?  How long of that fifteen minutes do you think was searching her car where she’s—maybe she’s sitting in the back seat?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Like I said, I did a quick search. Probably at max, maybe a little bit over five minutes, maybe like five minutes if.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So you’re with her for ten minutes?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Talking to her, yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did it take a while to get her to consent to search or what?  Ten minutes is a long time.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:She was nervous and she was crying and stuff, and I told her not to be nervous.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she say why she was crying?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:She said it’s a police officer and whatnot and ‘I’m just nervous because I got stopped by a police officer.’ So, I’m like, ‘Calm down. Everything’s fine.’  And then, so, I think maybe with the fact that she had no SDL, maybe she was nervous as well too, and then so I went to the search and it’s wasn’t that—it was a quick search like I said before.  It wasn’t in detail—pulling up carpet.  It was a quick search.

 

24:09

Det. Kim Davis: Because you were just ready to go home?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I was ready to go home.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you go home and go straight to bed?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I went home and went straight to bed.

 

Det. Kim Davis: All right.  You think of anything yet?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I think that was pretty good. Wasn’t that pretty easy?  Hey, we go to do this.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay?  You don’t mind?  It’s, I got to take your, your buccals.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You remember doing that in the…?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:That’s fine.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:All right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did we, did we buccal swab anybody in the academy?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Uh, I don’t know.

 

Det. Kim Davis: As a demonstration?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Here, write your name there, because I don’t even know how to spell it.  I can barely spell my own.

 

Det. Kim Davis: How do you say his name?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Daniel Holtzclaw.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Holtzclaw.  What is that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:It’s, uh, German.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Hey, read that out.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Can you speak German?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Uh, no, I can’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Oh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Hey, read that out loud to me.

 

Det. Kim Davis: It’s, yeah.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I, Daniel Holtzclaw, after having been advised of my right not to have a, a search made of my body here and after mentioned without a search warrant, and my right to refuse to consent to search a search to such a search hereby authorize Rocky Gregory, a detective of the Oklahoma City Police Department, to conduct a complete search of my body located at 701 Colcord, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.  Officers are authorized by me to take, uh, from my body samples of swabs from my body which they may desire.  This written permission is being given by me to the above named police official volunteer, uh, voluntarily and without threats of promises of any kind.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Basically, you’re giving buccal swab, swabs on—of your own free will.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:We do this as part, part of it. See, this ain’t so bad, huh?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No, but I’ve never had this done, so…

 

Det. Kim Davis: I know.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Say ah.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Ah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:There we go, and you get a free teeth cleaning with your first time.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You won’t go numb though.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:All right, and we’re going to have one more round.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I turned off my phone.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Well, I have a couple more questions. All right, this side.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Rock, what time is it on your watch? I turned my phone off so…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I’ve got, uh, 4:50, sorry, 4:47 is what I got.  So, do you usually do traffic stops on the way home, or what, what was?

 

26:42

Daniel Holtzclaw:I don’t.  Like I said before, I, I really don’t.  I usually try to get home because I’m tired after my shift.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Well, that, are you a big DUI worker?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:When I first started coming on I did.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I hated DUIs.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: But, not really at the end, no, to be honest with you.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I usually—if I see somebody swerving, I—whoop, the other way.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: And it’s [laughing]—a lot of other officers do too.  So…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Well, Daniel, this is, this is kind of one of the things that, uh, we kind of bring you in here to…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:…see how truthful you are.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Now you need to kinda, kinda think of a few different things here.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  We pulled up a lot of video around that area…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:…after these allegations. 

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay?  She also haved a SANE exam, which you know that consists of.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:There’s a reason why we wanted your buccals.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  Now, I mean, we can go through a couple different things…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:…of why we’ve got you in here, but… you sure there’s nothing you wanna?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Nothing.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:So, if we go off the video and watch that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You’re still gonna stick with your story.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Yes, sir.

 

Det. Kim Davis: If we go off DNA?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:DNA, as well.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Should we show you the video?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:If—yes!

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You, you do wanna see it?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Do I?  Yes.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:So, there’s nothing that you…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Everything that I recall of that night is what I—what was asked and everything.  That’s what happened.

 

Det. Kim Davis: If I—have I maybe not asked enough questions?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I think everything covered as far as that.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do you recall putting your penis in her mouth?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I don’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Would you recall that if you did it?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:If I did it, yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  Well, I think you really, in all honesty, you need to really double think about this.  I mean, I, I got to be honest with you.  It doesn’t look really good.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay?  I mean, and what you originally thought, detectives just don’t roll up in there for no reason.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay?  And we just didn’t pick you up, out, okay?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I mean, there’s a whole lineup there.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Uh huh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay?  But there’s definitely enough here to bring you in here to start questioning you.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay?  We knew you were on that stop.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:We knew you were there.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Uh huh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And we can watch a whole lot of actions being performed while you were there.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Uh huh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay?  That’s why she was trying to give you every out on the whole boobie thing.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

29:15

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay?  Now, is there any reason, any reason at all, even from whatever angle, because, you know, it takes a little bit to clear up those videos.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:But, any reason why your penis would be out?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Nothing?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Nothing.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  Now, in doing a—you know how SANE exams work and I ain’t got to explain about DNA or anything like that.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Now, I didn’t say you had sex with her.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, but getting a blow job, okay? That is a different story.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay?  You see my concern here?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I’m just listening to you, sir. I—that’s fine.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I know, but I’d rather listen to you and you start talking.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:That’s all I have, sir.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do, are we, are we going to get something from the SANE exam?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Go with the SANE exam.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do, and do you understand that you don’t have to full blown ejaculate to get something out of the SANE exam?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: We can get skin cells.  We can get pre-ejaculate.  You can do all that and still get DNA.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And did your penis go in her mouth?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No, it did not.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, because DNA will clear it up and here’s the deal too.  I, it, we can fall on the sword.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And say, ‘I screwed up’ or something, but if we say we didn’t do it, we didn’t do it, we didn’t do it, and then the DNA comes back and says he did it, then we have a huge problem.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: We’re here to give you the chance to fall on the sword so we don’t, we don’t want a huge problem.  We don’t want a huge problem for you.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: It’s, this is time.  It’s time.  If you’re, if it touched her mouth, if it touched the inside of her mouth for one second, two seconds, three seconds, you gotta tell us now.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Look, there is, there’s a huge difference, there’s a huge difference in between a rape being forced…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Uh huh.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And con—

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:…and some old girl who wants it.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay?  We’ve had plenty of that.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: We, we get that and we know that.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay?  But there, there is, [laughing] there is a big difference, okay?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:But I’m just saying, you know, these videos ain’t helping.  And, I mean, we’re gonna do the comparing and all that.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay?  But it’s not looking good so far.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay?  And I don’t want to see anybody go down for something that…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:…there was no force.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Now, I’m not seeing any beating or anything like that.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay?  I’m not seeing that big time, uh, big guy force her type thing like what we do see.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:But…

 

Det. Kim Davis: But if it was a get out of jail free card, that happens.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And we know that happens.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And, but we gotta know that. We’ve got to know that versus, you know, he made me and I didn’t want to, blah, blah, blah.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I—

 

Det. Kim Davis: If it’s a get out of jail free card then that’s a different story.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:We’ve worked enough of them, okay—cases—that it didn’t happen.  The problem is where we’re at right now.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay?  And that’s why we wanted to hear your version of the story.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Or do we just go off of what we see and, and, I mean, whatever this tests out as.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, but…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Sir, I’m, I’m sticking with my story. I’m, I’m…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, okay.  On the video, are we gonna see her boobies?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:You shouldn’t see her boobs.  I didn’t see her boobs.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Are we gonna see her pull her pants down?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I didn’t see her pull her pants down.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Are we gonna see your penis out?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Nope.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Are we gonna see your penis go in her mouth?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Are we gonna get any DNA to that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No.

 

33:23

Det. Rocky Gregory: Let’s switch up for a second.  We had another girl, okay?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You probably don’t, not necessarily gonna remember the name, but her name is Terry Morris.  Okay?  Black female. Um, supposedly, you promised her a ride to the City Rescue Mission.  This ring a bell?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You did a—a—a traffic stop with her, uh, she thought you ran her for warrants.  Clicking?  You drove her around.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Unh uh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: No?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:That name doesn’t—I don’ recall a name like that.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  She’s claiming the same thing.  The exact same thing.  And here again, for whatever reason, things are pointing at you again.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Now this is before even this incident this morning.  Traffic stop. Not logged in.  All that stuff.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:This morning?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:No, no.  This has been a little bit ago.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:This was here just a couple of weeks ago.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay?  Anything?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I don’t.  I don’t.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Do you remember, do you remember stopping?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I don’t recall a name of Terri Morris.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Well, I wouldn’t remember a name.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Right.  How about a black female, downtown, City Rescue Mission? That’s why I was trying to jog your memory.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I haven’t been to a City Rescue Mission.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I didn’t say you made it there.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:[laughing] I don’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Have you promised anybody a ride to the City Rescue Mission?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I haven’t asked any—anyone ask me to the City Res, uh, City Rescue Mission.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Now, she didn’t have to ask you. Did you offer to take anybody to the City Rescue Mission?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No, I don’t offer anyone, cause I don’t like going there to be honest with you.  I don’t.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You don’t like dealing with what?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I don’t like going over to the City Rescue Mission or anything like that.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  How about any stops of a person just walking, even just downtown, anywhere downtown?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I don’t, I don’t—in Springlake I don’t go downtown, besides if I go to Classen.  I mean, not Classen, but Western and Main—the Valero’s—to fill up.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Or the jail.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Or jail.  That’s right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Or headquarters, property room.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And you just, you just don’t remember doing any of those type of stops?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Not in the last month or so?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do you run everybody that you come in contact with?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Majority of the time.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:But you didn’t run old girl this morning?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:The Fiftieth…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Fiftieth and Lincoln.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No, I didn’t.  I didn’t run her.

 

Det. Kim Davis: We—the other girl that he’s talking about is kind of making the same allegations, and that’s, that’s weird.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Yeah, that’s…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:It doesn’t look good. [laughing] I mean…

 

Det. Kim Davis: I mean, that’s weird.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Yeah, it doesn’t look…

 

Det. Kim Davis: That’s weird.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Yeah, it doesn’t look good.  So, no, I don’t, no one with the City Rescue Mission, never been asked, never been offered anyone to go there.  Uh…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do you give people rides sometimes?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I do give people rides.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I do.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Because sometimes I’d be like, ‘I am not a taxi cab.’

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I’ll give them rides.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Have you always been in this, your new car?  I mean, ever had it down?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Uh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Driving another?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I’ve had a wreck on Twenty-Seventh and King where it was down for a little bit.  Um, starting out I was in pool cards, but this is my take home car.

 

36:51

Det. Rocky Gregory:No, I’m saying in the last month have you been driving any of the older cars?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Um, no.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Black and white versus the solid black.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I think this is the only car I’ve been in.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Have you ever driven a black and white car?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I have, yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: When?  When was that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right out of the academy.  A regular Crown Vic.

 

Det. Kim Davis: But when you, when you wrecked your car and it was down, what did you drive?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:A Crown Vic, black and white.

 

Det. Kim Davis: A, a black and white one.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: When was that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: A year ago, maybe.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, how long have you had a take home car?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Mmm…Probably a year and a half.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And it’s been this one?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: This one, yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So you wrecked it six months after having it?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, somewhere around there, yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: That sucks.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Was it your fault?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No. [laughing]

 

Det. Kim Davis: Well, that’s good.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:What do you think about all this?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t—heads out here.  Uh, I want you to take the exam and get, get this over with.  Uh, I feel embarrassed because of going to the station.  Um, I feel…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Well, that’s why we try to handle it.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Yeah, we do.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right, right, right.  And I’ve heard of officers going through this and, and whatnot, and that’s something I don’t want my rep to be, you know, about. You know, I’m, I’m a good officer. I, I don’t, that’s not me.  It’s not me.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Are you circumcised?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I am circumcised.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Just asking.  Do you have pubic hair?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Well, I mean, some people manscape, as you call it.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do you groom?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I groom, yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  So do I if that makes you feel any better.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: [laughing]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You got any identifying marks around your penis or…?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Just a plain old penis, huh?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Just a plain old penis.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Plain old fourteen incher.

 

Det. Kim Davis: [laughing]

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t say about that, but…

 

Det. Kim Davis: See, you should have.  You just had your opportunity.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:[laughing]

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: [laughing]

 

Det. Kim Davis: I just don’t know what to, what to think.  Would you take a polygraph?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, yeah.  If you want me to take a polygraph.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I mean, I just, I’m trying to think of a solution.  Do you know how slow DNA is?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t.  I do not.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Slow.  Uh, you’d be willing to take a polygraph on it?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, we can call them and get that set up.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You, uh, this is kind of delving off different, but you married?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I’m not married.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Girlfriends?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, here and there.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Kids?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No kids.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You’re big.  You on roids?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I’m not on steroids. [laughing]

 

Det. Kim Davis: A little bit?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I’ve been always…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Which, I don’t care.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I’ve always been big.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I’m not the dope police.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I’ve always been a big boned guy. Football.  Athletic.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You, you’ve got more than big bones. You’ve got big muscles too.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I work out all the time.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I do.  I do.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Where do you work out?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: At, uh, Four Star Gym off of May, about Sixty Third.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Yeah.  No roids at all?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No roids.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You do all the protein drinks and all that stuff?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I drink a lot of protein.

 

Det. Kim Davis: That can damage your kidneys, just so you know.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: [laughing] So…

 

Det. Kim Davis: If you did roids, would you tell us?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I would.  I’d tell you.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I mean, cause we don’t care.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I have nothing to hide about that. I’ve always been a big guy.  I always work out all the time and whatnot.

 

40:28

Det. Rocky Gregory:When’s the last shower you had?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, took a shower before work.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: When you went home, was anybody home?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Uh, my girlfriend was home?

 

[simultaneously]     Det. Kim Davis: Do—do you live with her?

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did you get laid?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Huh?  No, she doesn’t.  She just stayed.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did you get laid?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Uh, messed around, yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What’s messed around?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Uh.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Sex?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I guess…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: We’re all adults.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:We almost had sex, and she was tired.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What’d you do?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:So, my penis went around her vagina, and then, maybe went a little bit in, and then she pushed me off and said, ‘No. We don’t wanna… I’m tired.’  And I was, like, okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: That’s kind of mean to let it get that far and then stop.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: [laughing] So…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:So, that’s when you got home?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: That’s when I got home.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:How often do you have sex?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, about once a day, if that.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You guys have sex once a day?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: How old are you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Twenty-seven.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Oh, well, yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:How much do you jerk off?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, maybe once a day.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So, you have sex once a day and masturbate once a day?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: If I, yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What’d you do when you got shot down at home today?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Usually you’ve got to relieve that.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right, that’s... [laughing]

 

Det. Kim Davis: I know.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: That’s was, that was before work. That happened before work.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You masturbated before work?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Not, did you just roll over and go to sleep when she didn’t give you any?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You ever been accused of anything like this before?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I haven’t.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Not in Michigan?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, I have not.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You weren’t one of those football players?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:, I wasn’t.  I wasn’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis: That you see on the news?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I was not.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Anything, anything you can think of that will help us help you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: That’s it.  I want…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I’m going to step out.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I want to go take the test.  I want to clear my name.

 

[DET. ROCKY GREGORY EXITS ROOM]

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I want to get it cleared up.

 

42:44

Det. Kim Davis: Because we, you know what, if this is a bunch of false allegations then I want it cleared up too.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And I’ll help you clear it up, and, and, uh, it’s, this, we don’t talk.  It’s not sw—it’s swarming around Springlake.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: It’s, it’s, it’s—

 

Det. Kim Davis: It’s out there.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: It’s just in the department too.

 

Det. Kim Davis: It’s not swarming all over the department.  We, in Sex Crimes, we do not run around and go, ‘Guess what, this is what we’re working.’ I mean, w—we don’t do that.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: It’s not professional.  I’m not going to lie to you.  It’s around Springlake.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And everybody’s going to know that we pulled you down here.  We tried to do it as discreetly as we could.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: But, and, like I said, there’s officers that—I’m not saying being with the hookers is right, but it happens.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And it’s life.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And if, if that’s what this was, lay it out there for me now.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.  No, not it wasn’t.  No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: It wasn’t, she wasn’t, did she offer anything?  ‘Don’t take me to jail, don’t.  I’ll do this, I’ll do this.’

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: She, no, she…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she offer you anything?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I think she was nervous, like I said earlier, maybe a little flirtatious, but nothing crazy.

 

[DET. ROCKY GREGORY RE-ENTERS ROOM]

 

Det. Kim Davis: She never offered anything?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: In exchange for you not taking her?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, she was really worried about going to jail, but, and, you know, she…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Well, sometimes they’ll say, ‘Hey, I’ll give you a hummer.’

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: That’s it.

 

Det. Kim Davis: ‘If I don’t go to jail.’

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No. no.

 

Det. Kim Davis: She didn’t offer that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Unh uh.  She was nervous, like I said.  She cried earlier.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she cry as soon as you stopped her or after she was in your car?  When did she start crying?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I think in the car, yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:What made you let her go? Number one reason.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: To be, to be honest…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Yeah.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I wanted to get home.  I wanted…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Then why’d you pull her over?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: It [laughing] like I said earlier, I just, cop, swerve, DUI.  And if I had, if I had, if I had…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Holy crap, that’s a two hour job.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I know, if I had to do it, I would have done it, but I didn’t think she was past the legal limit.

 

Det. Kim Davis: That’s just, I mean, I just would avoid that if I—did you at any time, you said you picked her up around Fiftieth and Lincoln?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I mean, when you saw her swerve.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you at any time, were you always behind her or did you pull up beside her to maybe see who was in the car and then...

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.  She…

 

Det. Kim Davis: …pull back behind her?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: She was at Fiftieth and Lincoln, swerved, and I was behind her.  So I fell in behind her, and then waited until we passed the light.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Were you ever beside her?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

45:17

Det. Kim Davis: What, what lane was she in?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: In the outside lane, and I was in.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Closest to the curb?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, and I was inside.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you ever pull up beside her on this way and then fall behind her?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, I was…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Because sometimes…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I was directly behind her about here and she swerved.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And you stayed behind her.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: AndIstayed behind her.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Because sometimes I would pull up beside to see, okay, how many people am I dealing with.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, I didn’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis: In the car.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I didn’t do it that time.  I’ve done that before.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Right.  You didn’t do that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I didn’t do it this time.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Could you tell if she was the only passenger or?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I couldn’t.  It was dark tinted windows.  I couldn’t tell what’s inside of it.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So, you didn’t know how many people you were walking up on?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, I didn’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she roll down her window as soon as you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: She had the back left window rolled down and then, uh, the f—I don’t think she ever rolled it up, and then I think she opened the door if I recall.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, and was it pretty quick that you took her to the back, to your car?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: After a couple of questions. License and r—reg, you know, insurance, typical thing.  She just handed me her little, uh, Oklahoma Identification Card, and I was, like, okay, investigative detention, ‘Come back to the car with me’.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Yeah, cause that gives you a reason to search if you need it, I mean. What would you have done if you’d found some dope or a gun or something?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I, there’s, I mean, as officers if you find a little dime bag, it’s, you know, you can squash it out, you know, rub it out.  With a gun, obviously, different story.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And you logged out when?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, I don’t know exact time, but off Prospect.  Whenever I hit Prospect and probably about Fiftieth, I logged out.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do you guys, cause it’s done different now, do you have to go to the station and check all your stuff in?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, hand in our…

 

Det. Kim Davis: At the end of the shift?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Hand in our activity?

 

Det. Kim Davis: Mm hmm.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: And all that, whatnot.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You do that every night?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.  And then…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Not—sometimes you don’t go, to a buddy, ‘Here, turn this in, I’m going home’?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, the Lieutenants clear us and say, ‘You guys can go home’.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, so you didn’t, and what, do they make you wait until straight up two or do they cut you…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Majority.

 

Det. Kim Davis: At ten til two or…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Majority of the time.  Sometimes.  It’s just up to the supervisor.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: The majority of the time.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And then you left?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right then, yeah, and then I headed up Fiftieth, going northbound.

 

Det. Kim Davis: How’d you get to Fiftieth?  Just down Prospect?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Springlake Station take a right to go north off Prospect, take, uh, take a left and to go westbound on Fiftieth.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And then picked her up at Lincoln or whatever.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: About there-ish.  To the east when I saw her.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Any other traffic out there?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, that was the only car.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What about during the time you had her stopped for, like, fifteen minutes?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: What do you mean?  

 

Det. Kim Davis: Was there a lot of traffic going by? Was there any traffic going by?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I think there were cars I could see as far as coming, going west towards our direction and whatnot, but nothing like real crazy driving by us all the time.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:[long pause] Step out.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Yeah.  Hang for a minute.  Let us pow wow.

 

48:33

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Host:At this point both Detective Davis and Gregory step out of the room, leaving Holtzclaw sitting in silence for approximately six minutes and forty seconds before both returning.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Det. Kim Davis: Your phone.  I wanted to, they are looking in your car.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Oh, okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: But they wanted you to have your phone.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: All right, so we have no misunderstanding because maybe I didn’t key in on some things, I want you to, you turn in your activity card—walk me through it all again.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I turn in my activity card.  I leave out of the station.  Make a—take a right.  Go northbound on Prospect all the way to Fiftieth.  About that time, I turn off my computer.  I’m done for the night.  I head left to go westbound on Fiftieth.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: From Prospect.  About a block down I see a red Grand Prix in the outside lane.  I was on the inside lane.  Directly in front of me the car swerved.  At that time I kind of fall behind of it.  I didn’t intentionally light it up until we hit about Fiftieth and, um, Lincoln. I didn’t want to light it up at, at the, at the stop sign, so I waited until we go forward and just lit it up just to the west and then that’s when I made the traffic stop.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, walk me through the stop.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Made the traffic stop.  Made contact.  ‘You have you license and insurance?’  The normal protocol.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Mm hmm.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: She gave me her identification card and then at that time I said, ‘Do you have a valid driver’s license?’  She said, ‘No’ so, I was like, ‘Okay, that’s fine. Step out of the vehicle.’

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she have insurance?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, she didn’t bring me the thing for insurance.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I just saw the ID and I was like, ‘Do you have valid insurance?’

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I mean, valid license.  So, I brought her back to the house—house—the car, and then that’s when I…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, what side of your car?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: The back, right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: The passenger’s side?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Go ahead.

 

50:34

Daniel Holtzclaw: So, as I’m walking her down, I’m like, ‘Do you have any weapons?’ or whatever.  I always ask people when they step out of the car, whatnot.  At that time, I patted her down, whatnot.  Uh, I asked her to lift up her shirt, no, no weapons in there that I could see or anything like that.  I put her in the back of my car.  I asked her what the deal is.  She’s going to Ann Arbor on the northwest side to visit her daughter, I believe.  Uh, and then I’m like, ‘Okay, why were you swerving?  Why are you late at two o’clock at night driving?’  And what not.  ‘What’s the deal?’  Um, she’s like, ‘I’m just going to my daughter’s house.’  ‘Okay, so why were you swerving?’  She’s like, ‘I got nervous’ or something or whatever the deal is. So, I asked her, okay, I go, ‘Is there anything inside the car I need to know about?’  And then she said there was some juice in there.  I was like, ‘Is there any alcohol in the juice?’  She says, ‘No’.  So, I was like, ‘Anything else inside the car?’  She’s like, ‘Oh, you might just find some pills’ and whatnot. So, I asked, proceeded to ask, ‘Can I have consent to search your car?’  She says yes.  I go to the car.  I did a quick search, nothing out of, you know, I didn’t look up any carpets or anything like that, a quick search.  I looked under the seat.  Um, looked in her purse.  I saw the pills, smelt the, the juice.  I didn’t smell any alcohol in the juice.  Then when I looked at the pills, a kind of quick glance to make sure it was her name, whatnot.  Okay, we’re good.  Went back over there and okay, what’s the deal with this?  Blah, blah, blah, whatnot and she’s like, ‘I’m just trying to go see my daughter.’  And then I was like, ‘Okay, I don’t wanna g—I don’t wanna take you to jail.  I’m tired.  I want to go home.’  And then she’s like, ‘Okay.’  So, basically went from there and I said, ‘I’ll follow you, um, follow you around’. We got in our car.  She took forever, so I pulled out, did a U-turn in front of her.  She followed me where I could see her in the rearview mirror.  We went over and I went northbound on Broadway Extension and she went Forty-Four West and that was it.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Did, uh, why’d you log off?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I always log off.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Aren’t you supposed to stay logged on until you get home?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I always log off.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do you keep your police radio on when you go home?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, so you’re listening?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I think, I think, I think I had my radio on, yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do sometimes you turn them off?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, I do.

 

Det. Kim Davis: That’s not good officer safety.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I...

 

Det. Kim Davis: What if you drive by an armed robbery?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: That’s true too, yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I mean, or what if you drive by an officer that needs backup.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: That’s right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And you’re right there and you didn’t hear it?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: That’s right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I’m giving you my, my mommy lecture.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:[laughing]

 

Det. Kim Davis:So you always log off when you’re done?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Majority of the time, yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  When she, when you bring her to the passenger side of the car, here’s her car.  I’m, I’m not a good artist either, and here’s your car.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, so you bring her over here?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: The back right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Passenger’s side.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Is this where you’re having your conversation the whole time?

 

53:26

Daniel Holtzclaw: The whole time when I step out of the car I’ll always talk to them, ‘Well, do you got anything on you?’  So, as we’re walking here I’m like, ‘Okay, got anything on you?’  Okay, um, ‘Do you care if I just quick pat you down or whatever?’  She said, ‘Go ahead.’  I quick pat her down, don’t have any weapons I felt or anything like that. I go, ‘Lift up your shirt’ about right there.  Nothing. Okay, keep walking, walking.  I’m still checking her out making sure everything’s good.  I’m like, ‘Anything in your shoes?’  ‘No.’ Try to take off her shoes.  I’m like, ‘No, you’re good.’  So, we get inside the car and that’s when I proceeded to ask ‘Anything on board?’.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, so she got inside the car?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: She got inside the car.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you go get in the car and talk or did you stand there with the door open and talk to her?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I think I did get inside the car for, like, a quick minute and just see what the deal is, just talking to her and whatnot.  And that’s the time where I think I s—smelt the alcohol, just a little bit on her, but nothing f—I didn’t stay in the car forever and what not.  I just talked to her for a quick, brief minute.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And then you went up and searched.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, I got consent to search the car. I asked if anything’s on board and she said, ‘Juice.’  I was like, ‘Any alcohol in the juice?’  ‘No.’ ‘Anything else I should know about before I go inside the car, because I’m going to find it.’  She said, ‘Pills.’  Okay, I was like, ‘All right.’  I didn’t ask her specifically where the pills were.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Right.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: So, I go inside the car, looked under the front, left seat, quick searching, looking through the car is there anything?  Like I said, I smelled the juice.  I didn’t smell any alcohol.  I went through her purse.  Purse I saw bottles of pills and whatnot, but just a quick glance, okay, that’s her name, and w—went back.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Now, when you went back, did you get in your car or did you go back over here?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I, I can’t, I, I don’t know if I went into my car when I went back over there to be honest with you.  I don’t know.  

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you, sometimes, like I said, we open the car door and we stand.  Car door’s open.  And I’ll stand right here and talk to them cause they’re sitting right here.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.  I’ve done that, yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you do that with her?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, I did that.  Yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So, you’re having conversation while she’s sitting in the car right there?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right, yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, but you don’t remember if you got back in here?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I know I, I believe I did get back in the car, that’s when I smelled just the slight of alcohol on her.

 

Det. Kim Davis: That was pre-search.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I, I believe so.  I believe so.  I don’t know.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And I’m trying to get this so we can match it up with the video.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.  Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Uh, after you search you come back over here and talk to her?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Any cars passing by then?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Maybe a couple.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Could she have mis—because if you’re standing right here, and you’re a big guy.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And she’s sitting right here.  If she goes like this—wah—she’s going to be looking right at your penis.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay. [laughing] It’s…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Could?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: It was just talking.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you, let me ask you this, did you ever get a hard on while you were talking to her?  Because she could have…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t, I don’t think I did.  I…

 

Det. Kim Davis: These pants don’t fit the greatest and if, if you get a hard on, I’m going to be able to tell you’ve got a hard on.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.  And I don’t, I’m pretty positive I didn’t get a hard on.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You didn’t get a hard on when…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I’m pretty positive.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You talked to her?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Pretty positive.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Well, you, do you still just get boners because you get boners?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You do?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  So, have you ever got a boner on a call?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I’m pretty sure I have.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Pretty sure I have.

 

Det. Kim Davis: But you, but it’s not something you would remember?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I mean, I, I would remember if I got a hard on.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: While talking to somebody.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: [laughing]It’s, as a guy, that’s…

 

Det. Kim Davis: That’s not something I know, I know.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: So.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Well, you’re not fifty yet either [laughing] so it happens because of your age.  Uh, could she have misconstrued?  Could you have got a hard on and she saw it and it…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t think I got a hard…

 

Det. Kim Davis: …scared her?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t think I got a hard on, but like I said, she was already nervous and crying and whatnot.  I already told her, I’m like, ‘Hey, I want to go home. I’m done with my shift.  I don’t think you need to be worried about, if nothing’s on board where I need to take you to jail you’re good.  I’m not worried about no state driver’s license.’

 

57:04

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Did you pants come unzipped, unbuttoned, anything, while you were standing right there?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: CSI is processing your car right now.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And when we stepped out they found some pubic hairs right in here.  Could they be yours?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.  That’s not, I didn’t pull my penis out.  I didn’t do anything right there.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Do you think they could be?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.  It’s not.  No. Nothing of mine.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Your pubes couldn’t be right there?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.  No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Has your penis ever been out…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: While I’m…

 

Det. Kim Davis: …by your car?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: While I’m working?  No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Not working?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Have you ever had sex in the backseat of your car?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I have not.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Because, I mean, some people do. I, I’m not saying forced sex. Consensual sex.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So your penis has never been in your backseat?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Unh uh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Is it possible any of this DNA is yours?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, it’s not.  That’s I would like to, go, go at it.  Not my DNA.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Are those pubes going to be yours?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.  No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: [long pause]Are you worried about it?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I’m, this whole situation I’m worried about.  I mean, I’ve never been here, never been questioned.  Uh, especially in a, you know, like a room like this, you know?  Honestly, I’m worried about the whole circumstances of the station and everything.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Well, you got to understand we kind of see different things, okay?  You seemed a little extra worried whenever you talked about seeing her, we talked about seeing her boobies.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You sure she just didn’t flash you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I can’t, she did not flash, I, I don’t want to say I can’t recall, but I’m pretty positive she didn’t flash me her…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:When I see a pair of titties, I’m going to remember.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: She go—she went like this, but nothing as far as I’m going, like, crazy looking.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Lifting, lifting the shirt.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I, no.

 

Det. Kim Davis: How far did she lift it?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: She, well, she lifted it up first when I patted her down.  She was like right here to her, like, stomach line.  That’s it.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you see her belly?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Maybe some fat rolls or something. I don’t know, but nothing like I was…

 

Det. Kim Davis: But, I mean, could you see skin?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, I saw skin.  Yeah.  Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Well, she’s older.  Were her tits hanging down and you saw the bottom of her tits?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: [laughing] I don’t know.

 

Det. Kim Davis:[laughing]

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:It was dark.  I don’t know.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You like older women?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t.

 

[simultaneously]     Det. Kim Davis: How old is your girlfriend?

Det. Rocky Gregory: How old is your girlfriend?

 

All:[laughing]

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, she’s twenty-five.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What’s the oldest lady you’ve slept with?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, maybe twenty-nine.

 

59:52

Det. Rocky Gregory:You ever slept with a black woman?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I have.  In high school I have.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Pre—do you have a race that you prefer?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t.  No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You just like…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I’m half Japanese, so I’m not really…

 

Det. Kim Davis: I was going to ask you if you were Asian.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: …racial about anything.  So, I’m not really, discriminate against.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Who’s Japanese, your mom or your dad?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: My mom.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Is your dad huge?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: How’d you get so big?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: That’s what everyone asks me, and that’s what I thought.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Because, I mean, Asian genes are kind of small.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: That’s why I thought I was adopted at first when I talked to them, but, uh, my dad’s small – five nine.  Japanese people are small in general, so…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Wow.  How tall are you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: About six two.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Wow.  He got big—does daddy have some big guys on his side?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: The thing about it, he’s a family of four, three, well, he’ll be, with him four brothers, but I think his generation, his uncle was pretty tall and I think that’s where I got it.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I think we’ve covered a lot of the sex questions.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Yeah, is there anything?  You got any sex questions?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t. No.  [laughing]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You got anything of us?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t.  I don’t.  No.  I just [laughing] this whole, this whole situation and, I just…

 

Det. Kim Davis: It’s kind of scary.  I get it.  I know.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: It is scary, and I don’t li—I don’t want my rep to be, everything’s about, in law enforcement.  I don’t—three years on.  I know that, that everything’s about your reputation.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Absolutely.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: And I don’t want this to follow my rep.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I understand.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: So.

 

1:01:30

Det. Kim Davis: Why would she make, because whens, when a, when a woman says some—something like this and they go through a SANE exam and they go, you didn’t give her a ticket, so she’s not getting out of a ticket. You didn’t arrest her, because we get those when they go to jail, ‘I’ve been raped’.  And have to work those stupid things.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Because they think they’re going to get out of jail.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Why in the world would she make this up?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t know.  I was, she was cooperative.  She was nervous, like I said earlier, crying.  I told her not, I’m not worried about no state driver’s license.  I wasn’t making…

 

Det. Kim Davis: She said she was crying.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, and I, I don’t, you know, at times as an officer, you might make a threat to be like, ‘Oh, I’m going to take you to jail’.  Um, but to try to get some way to get in the car or something [inaudible].

 

Det. Kim Davis: Right.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: But that wasn’t the case.  I wasn’t threatening her.  I wasn’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she ever ask you if you were going to shoot her?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: She did.  She was talking about a pistol all the time and talking about guns and whatnot and I’m like, ‘Calm down.  I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna shoot you or anything like that.’

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she think you were going to shoot her?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Maybe.  But, I’m like, ‘What?!’  And I even asked her, I think I asked her, ‘What’s the deal with you and cops? You have a bad run-in with a cop?’ That was it.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So, did, you had to tell her.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I said, ‘Calm down.’

 

Det. Kim Davis: Calm down.  Did you ever say, ‘I promise I’ll let you go.’

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I did.  I said, ‘I promise I’ll let you go.  I’m not worried about no state driver’s license.  Is there anything inside that car?’ 

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Did you tell her you were going to follow her home?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I did.  I did, but then when she took forever to turn around I got annoyed and I was like screw it and go.  But I saw her in the rearview mirror and I saw her take Forty-Four when I went northbound on Broadway.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Where did she live?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: She said she was going to sister’s house in Ann Arbor and she was going…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Were you really going to follow her? That’s far.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I was gonna drift off.  You know, I might not really follow her, but I’ll just kind of drift off and, okay, she’s good to go.  So, I didn’t think at first she was drunk.  She wasn’t over the s—the legal limit.  But I might have thought alcohol was on board, but nothing where she’s DUI.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Any way those pubes are going to be yours?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, they’re not.  Please, go.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I, I know.  I know.  We’re going to test it.  It just takes…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: They’re not.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Any way your skin cells are going to be anywhere on her mouth?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Skin cells from your fingers?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you touch her body anywhere, other than with the back of your hand pat searching her?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I just pat searched her and that was about it.  I didn’t touch her face or anything.  Not…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You got to understand, we’ve had so many people sat in that same chair.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:That tell us all day long, ‘I didn’t do this.  I didn’t do this.’  They promise on their baby, on their momma.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:They promise to God.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yes, they do.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And then they come right back. We get back these tests and you can’t get out of it.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You know?  I mean, once you kind of get, basically, kind of locked into something, there’s no talking about it.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And that’s why we try to give a person every opportunity.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:To see if…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Cause if the tests come back, you ain’t coming back in here.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Because we’re, here we have a woman that says about, you know, basically being sexually assaulted.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, and we’re calling it by force and all that.  Big difference between that and a hook up.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And if they come back, if, if there’s something there and you say no and she said it was that, you know, you, you see where we’re going?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.  I do.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:That’s why we always try to give every angle.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:We wasn’t there.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:So, we just got to go off of everything that we see and, and have.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I understand.

 

Det. Kim Davis: No hook up?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No hook up.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Not even a little hook up?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, not a little hook up.

 

Det. Kim Davis: No boobie?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No boobie.  I saw no breasts.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she see your penis?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I’m just trying to think of anything that she could have misconstrued or why, why’d she go to all this trouble.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t know.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you do anything that pissed her off?

1:05:45

Daniel Holtzclaw: That’s what I’m saying, I don’t think I did anything when I was talking to her.  I wasn’t rude.  She was cooperative.  I wasn’t at a point where I’d be like, ‘Okay, you’re going to jail’ or something, or whatnot. I don’t think I made any, like, threats to make, you know, to get her in the car, like I said, or anything like that.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:When we first walked into the office, first time you saw us, okay?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And we just kind of started talking, y—you brought up this traffic stop.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Because the Major came in, or the Captain, talking about Fiftieth and Lincoln.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And, okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: When, when he came and got you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, it was something.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What’d he say to you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I think it was the Captain, and, uh, we were in the Major’s office and he said something, accusations of Fiftieth and Lincoln.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:No, we…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: And I didn’t hear any rumors going into the station or anything.  I was just going to show up in lineup like I normally do.

 

Det. Kim Davis: When you, when you came in you said something about, ‘Whoa, why are all them guys here?’

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t think I said—I was shocked. I, I was like…

 

Det. Kim Davis: You said that in the car.  Not to, you were like, ‘When I saw everybody I was like, Whoa, I wonder…’

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Because I was.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you think we were there for you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I was just wonder, I saw that and I knew from academy, I was like, what, what’s going on?

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you think it was for you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I didn’t know.  I didn’t see, I’ve never been in trouble like this before. I’ve never got accused of anything like this or nothing.

 

Det. Kim Davis: But it scared you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, I was scared.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, if I walked into the station and saw some Sex Crimes detective there, that wouldn’t scare me.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: It wouldn’t scare me if I was just in the briefing station, but it, since I went in the room, was told to go in the room and I saw you’re Sex Crimes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Then you… okay.  Okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: That’s when I…

 

Det. Kim Davis: But I, I saw you when you walked in the door.  Did you see me in the Captain’s office?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I saw you, but I saw Captain glance over like that.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you get scared then?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.  The Captain, I, I’m good with Captain Clifton.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Are you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: And we use to say hey what’s up all the time so it wasn’t a big deal to me like that, but when he told me to come into the room.

 

Det. Kim Davis: But when you got called in the…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: …then you were like, whoa.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, what’s going on?

 

Det. Kim Davis: What’s your phone number?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: [redacted]

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you exchange phone numbers with this lady?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I did not.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she have a phone?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I do not know.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you talk about hooking up later?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, I did not.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Is she somebody you’d hook up with?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she want to hook up later?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t know.  I, she didn’t give me any clues like that.  She was…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she ask for your number?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I’m just trying to think of every conceivable, possible thing for this.

 

1:08:47

Det. Rocky Gregory:Run down through on your search of her breasts again.  E—exactly how that went.  Because even, that and her pants.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Was she standing?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:One more time.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Or sitting?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: When?

 

Det. Kim Davis: During that time.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I patted when I got to the vehicle, about right here.  Um, said, ‘Can I search you?’ and whatnot.

 

Det. Kim Davis: At, more by the front door?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: The front, right fender.  And then I patted her down, boom, boom, boom. ‘Lift up your shirt’ right here, boom, no weapons, whatnot.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So you said, ‘Lift up her shirt’?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: ‘Your shirt.’

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What if that would, if she would have gone wah?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Then I would have been, I would have told a supervisor or something.  I’d be like, to get that off my back, you know.  I, that’s not what I meant.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Right.  You, you searched her with her, where was her, was she facing you or facing away?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Facing away.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:She was facing away.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And how are you seeing if anything’s falling if she’s facing away?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: If it’d fall I would see right there.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You’d see right there, but don’t you usually have them turn face toward you and sh—do a shake out?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Well, officer safety.  I always have everyone face away from me.  You can’t see what you can’t hit.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:But you don’t know if a weapon’s there or anything.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I, as far as I, quick pat search, ‘Lift up your shirt’, no weapons on board.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Now, you made a mention earlier about her pants.  Uh, she did what with her pants?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: As far as that, it was just in the s—in the backseat.  Nothing. She had tight pants and that’s about it.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:But how did, did you have her do, like, a cursory movement around her, her beltline?  Anything like that or any shake?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Did you tell her how to, how far to raise her shirt or to do the, the shake with the bra?  Anything like that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I think she did the shake with her bra by herself.  I didn’t say to do any of that, as far as the lift up.  The…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she pull it out and go like that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yes.  But as far as, that’s on her.  As far as right here is when I told her to lift up the waistband.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:But she was faced away from you the entire time that her, her chest was…

 

[PHONE RINGS]

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:She was checking?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.  Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So, when she lifted up her shirt, her back was to you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, I think she was facing me, h—honestly, because I want to look at the front end.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You said you might have saw her, her belly, like a fat roll.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:So you would have been to the side or to the front.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: If, the time when she faced me is probably when I would have saw f—a fat roll or skin.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:But, it wasn’t for the, the check?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No. No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she try to pull her pants down?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, not that I recall.  Uh, moved around in the seat and that’s about it. Nothing as far…

 

Det. Kim Davis: But when she was standing, did she try to pull her pants down?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.  No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she do, you said she kind of did like this.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: She did this.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she ever do anything down here?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, because at that time when she asked me, ‘Do you want, you want me to show you?’ and I’m like, ‘No, no, I’m good.’

 

Det. Kim Davis: She did ask if?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What’d you say?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I said, ‘No, I’m good.’

 

Det. Kim Davis: When was that?  Where was everybody then?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I think that was in the car.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, I don’t think you said that last time.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I think I did, yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Maybe you did and maybe I just missed it.  So, she was in the car and said, ‘Do you want me to show you?’

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Once she did the, the shake thing and she’s like, ‘Do you want me to show you?’ and I was like, ‘No.’

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Show you what?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Just as, I guess she was trying to mean as far as just to boom or something, if anything’s in her bra or anything like that.

 

01:10:54

Det. Kim Davis: But that was after you already had her lift up her shirt a little bit?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right, because I was at the front, right fender.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Okay, and, like I said, I may have missed that or got confused or—we’ve talked a lot.  So, she asked you, when she’s sitting in your car, ‘Do you want me to show you?’

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And you said no.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: To, no.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she attempt it?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.  And that was after the, whatever she was doing.

 

Det. Kim Davis: After she was kind of doing like this?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: A thing that kind of concerns me is everything you’re telling me is dead on to what she says.  Everything.  Except the sexual stuff.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Nothing was done as far as that. Nothing.

 

[VIBRATING NOISE]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:[long pause] Did she smell of anything else besides alcohol?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Just a little bit, like I said, when I was in the car seat.  But I asked her if anything else was on board and she just said pills.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she smell, though, like weed, or?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Not, not PCP or anything with a stink that I would smell.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Right.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I didn’t smell any weed inside the car. I didn’t smell any weed on her person. Um, that’s about it.

 

01:12:36

Det. Rocky Gregory:[long pause] Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Got any questions?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: [laughing]I just…

 

Det. Kim Davis: I mean, we’ll talk—

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I’m just bombarded with questions and…

 

Det. Kim Davis: I know.  Do you have any?  Do you want to bombard us with any questions?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t. [laughing] It’s, no, I don’t. I don’t have any questions.  I just…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:We might, uh, as far as the, you said you’d take the lie detector test.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do you have any extra job?  Is there a time when you can’t take a lie detector test?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Then you can take it at any time?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I can take it at any time.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, you’re not scheduled for vacation coming up?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I’m not scheduled for vacation.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, what, where are you at on your days on right now?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, this will be my second day on, Wednesday.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So, you’re Tuesday to Tuesday?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I’m Tuesday to Tuesday.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You take any testosterone booster?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I do take a pro-hormone, which is over the counter.  Uh, BYN, Beyond Your Nutrition, which is off Memorial and Penn-ish.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What’s that do to your nuts?  You know how they say?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: They say, they say it shrinks your nuts.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Does it?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: They say it shrinks your nuts.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Are your nuts shrunk?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t think they are. [laughing]

 

Det. Kim Davis: I mean, well, you would notice. You know your ball size.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t, I don’t think they have shrunk.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Has it done anything to your penis?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Nope.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You have any problem getting it up?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You have any problem ejaculating?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:But it’s called BYN?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: BYN, Beyond Your Nutrition.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Is that the name of the store or what you take?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: It’s off—the store.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Oh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:What’s the stuff you take?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: It’s, uh, called Methodrol.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Does it make you hornier when you’re on that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Supposedly.  Science says that it’s supposed to increase your testosterone levels.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do you feel?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: So, which, which in case, I guess, makes you more…

 

Det. Kim Davis: What—how long you been taking that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, on and off for maybe a year.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So, do you think, think you want it more since you’ve been on that?  I mean, if you’re doing it once a day, that’s a lot, I think.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Plus jacking off.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Plus jacking off.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: For my age, I don’t think that’s a lot.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Was it that before you took this stuff?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.  I think I have a, I think that’s probably why I’m a bigger guy is because I have higher testosterone.  An athlete and...

 

Det. Kim Davis: And do you think you have a high sex drive?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do you like oral sex, normal?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I like it all.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You’ll take it if you’ll...  mm hmm.  Do you prefer vaginal?  Would you rather a blow job or do it in the hoo haw?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Do it, me take it in the...?

 

Det. Kim Davis: No, you give it in the hoo haw or get a blow job.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, sex.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Sex?  What about anal sex?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, I don’t like any of that.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You don’t?  Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:[long pause] Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Well, let’s step out.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I had some questions about some midgets, but I guess I’ll leave that alone.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:[laughing]

 

Det. Kim Davis: Have you ever had sex with a dude?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I have never had sex with a man.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Have you ever wanted to?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I do not.  I do not want to mess with a guy.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:All right.

 

01:15:50

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Host:Both detectives step out of the room again. This marks the third time Holtzclaw has been left sitting alone in the Interrogation Room.  Holtzclaw is also being observed this entire time by Lieutenant Muzny who is in another room.  Detectives Davis and Gregory return after about nine minutes.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  Thanks.

 

Det. Kim Davis: We pow-wow and then we keep you.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:All right, that gal I was talking about, that Terri Morris, the one I, the other, the other person, okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:The one who’s saying the same thing, okay?  Like I say, it was downtown.  She was walking, okay?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:So, when I say a stop, that’s, you know, you see.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Like a voluntary contact thing.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, here, think of a cross between, this is one picture and this is her.  Does she look familiar?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:No?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Unh uh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Now, you stopped her for sure, and ran her.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:On a different day.  It was May 8th.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, you sure she doesn’t look familiar at all?  Now, when you stopped her, you know, over at the Liberty Apartment area?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, that’s where you stopped her on May 8th.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, now does that ring a bell at all?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, it doesn’t.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  All right.  Now, you ran her then, okay?  Now, she says that, uh, you stopped her later on, like I say, later on in the month. It was more kind of a downtown area. Does that ring a bell at all?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t recall any of those pictures. I don’t recall any of that.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t ever go downtown besides if I go to the gas station or County or Headquarters.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Off-duty jobs, where, where do you work off-duty?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t.  I don’t have an off-duty.  All I have is courtesy officer at my apartment.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, so, besides Varu—uh, Valero and, and County.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Maybe Viper here and there, maybe.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: That’s within our…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Were you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: On duty.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:But you’re running Viper out of Springlake?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Out of Springlake.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  All right, uh, you ever, with your car you ever go visit anybody? Any buddies or anything like that or?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Shopping?  Anything?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, what, why would, and granted you’re not even recalling her on the May 8th.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, uh, but that’s, I just wanted you to have a frame of mind of who’s, who’s making this, uh, these statements against you.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And it’s the exact same thing too. You know?  Uh, you stop her, have her sit in the backseat, run her for warrants, then you have her, get her out.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, unzip the pants.  I mean, on and on and on, we can go through.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I mean, it’s…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:It’s to a t of this one.

 

Det. Kim Davis: It’s exactly the same.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah,I don’t recall any of those people.  I don’t think I recognize those people.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What if you could recall?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Well, it’s the same one.  This is the same one.  I’m just showing you a picture of…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Of how she’s changed.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Yeah, this is change, okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: That’s the same girl.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:It’s two different time periods, but she looks kind of in between.  It’s the same girl.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

01:18:48

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay?  Still nothing?  Even vaguely? She’s always on the Northeast side, you know.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uhn uh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Twenty-Third and, and Kelley. Thirty-Sixth?  Kelley?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:All right.  But she’s, I mean, she’s described you to a t.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, and, like I say, I mean, it’s everything, everything, you know?  You don’t remember her?  Even, even forget what she’s saying.  You don’t remember having, offering a, a ride to the, to the shelter?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I run in contact with a lot of people, especially at Liberty Station.  That’s where I patrol.  That’s my area as Charlie Three, like my sector.  I go there all the time.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Where is that?  Just because I don’t know.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Twenty-Sixth and Lindsey area.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: So, I, I don’t bring anyone to the shelter.  I don’t, if I was asked, I would be like, ‘Find another way.’  I don’t.  I haven’t brought anyone to the shelter.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Yeah, but you, it’s a good way to get somebody in the car.  

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: It is.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Do you remember having contact with a female like that age, okay, uh, that, you know, said she was going from the shelter from a rehab center?  Uh, even saying, you know, you would take her?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Driving her around. Anything like that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  Do you ever, every time you have a female in the back do you go ten fourteen or you just kind on zip over?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, I don’t. Usually it’s—all the times if I do, you’re supposed to say—policy—you’re supposed to let dispatch know.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, who cares about policy right now?  Because we don’t.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: At this point. Do you do the mileage and do all that or?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I can’t—here and there.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Sometimes you don’t.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Sometimes I don’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Sometimes I don’t.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Zip on back to this other deal.  You’re saying about a fifteen minute traffic stop.  How long do you usually take on traffic stop, just on average?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: [sigh] Maybe twenty minutes.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Now that’s a…

 

Det. Kim Davis: That’s a long time.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Maybe.  Maybe.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Now, twenty minutes, and I’ll give it to you, just even doing the gang stuff and all that, okay?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Twenty minutes, now that’s going to be some eight hundred time, right?   

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Eight hundred, searching the car in detail, all that.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, so doing all of that.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:All the running, waiting in line, and even on a search, now, the, the question I have is we got a lapse of time here.  So, I’m kind of, get a better handle on where the time went.  You’re talking about fifteen minutes.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:No eight hundred. No running on the computer.  You shut it down.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And even you said it was just a quick little search of the car.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: It was.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Where’s the rest of that time?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Just talking to her.

 

Det. Kim Davis: About what?  I mean, she’s…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Just see where you’re going at—trying to—actually to try and get her to confess are you drunk or not.  Like, have you been drinking, because I could smell it when I was in the car but I couldn’t really get—

 

Det. Kim Davis: Well, what if she would have said, ‘Yes, I’m drunk.’

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I probably would have took her down.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Did you do any?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I didn’t do any.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Tests?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I didn’t do any sobriety tests, just from inside the car smelling it and that’s about it.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:But even that.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Emotional maybe.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:But even that, that would be just within a, a minute or two.  I mean, I use to be DRE so I know how long those questions will last.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:So, then you switch on over.  But nothing?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Nothing.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, well, I didn’t hear a lot of drunk questions.  You know, like, uh, ‘How much did you…’

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: ‘Have you been drinking?’  Uh, mainly it’s just, ‘Have you been drinking?’  Try to get her to confess.  ‘Is there anything inside that juice?’  ‘No.’  Uh, ‘Why are you driving so late at two o’clock’ and ‘Where are you going?’ ‘Going to Arbor on the west side.’ ‘Where are you, who are you going to see?’  Just trying to just talk to her, but…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, right there, those questions maybe took forty seconds, fifteen minutes?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And you said five at the car.  So, then we’ve got ten of a lot of questions.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, I mean you, you tell me.  I wasn’t there.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I mean.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And obviously, I don’t have any audio.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: And I’m, and I’m, and that’s what I’m saying.  Roughly on a traffic stop, I take about twenty minutes.  It was the quickest traffic stop, about fifteen minutes.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:That’s your quickest traffic stop?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, not my…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, you’re a slow poke.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I’m not. [laughing]  I don’t, I don’t really get ten-ninetied at all or anything like that, but I, I take my time sometimes.  

 

Det. Kim Davis: But you didn’t write her tickets.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I didn’t write her a ticket.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You didn’t run her.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I didn’t run her.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You didn’t even put yourself out.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I didn’t put myself out.

 

Det. Kim Davis: How could you take fifteen minutes on that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Just talking.  I, I must have been talking, so that’s it.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I don’t, I can’t see her wanting to talk if she’s crying and asking if you were going to shoot her and all this. I don’t see her being real forthcoming with conversation.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Whether my questions or whatnot, that’s it.  I…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I mean, you don’t seem—I mean, I don’t know how you were out there, but just kind of talking with you, I mean, you seem real laid back and everything like that.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I, I don’t, I’ve never got the impression of just kind of an angry type cop.  We know some.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You know, that, uh, yeah, you might would ask, but I, I don’t see that question coming up of, of you.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I mean, you’re not saying she was drunk or high or…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I mean, I didn’t think she was drunk over the legal limit of .08, and like I said, I, I didn’t make any threats to her.  She, she was just emotional because maybe the gun deal or she saw a cop and she’s…

 

Det. Kim Davis: What gun deal?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: She said, ‘You got a gun?’  So, I was like, ‘Calm down.’

 

Det. Kim Davis: Well, duh, everybody has a gun.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, and so I guess she brought that up and I was like, ‘Calm down.’

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:When she asked about that, ‘You got a gun?’ at what point did she ask that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, she asked that right when we were searching.  The pat search.  And when we were in the back of the car.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So, she brought it up twice?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Twice?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Twice.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Did she just say, ‘You got a gun?’ or what?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, and then starts crying and I’m like, ‘Don’t get emotional, it’s okay.’

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did she ever say, ‘You shouldn’t do this’?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Or, ‘I can’t do this’?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

01:24:57

Det. Kim Davis: She just says, ‘You got a gun’?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: ‘You got a gun.’

 

Det. Kim Davis: ‘Are you going to shoot me?’

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.  No, I, I, no, no, I don’t think she ever said that.

 

Det. Kim Davis: No, you said, you said last time, you…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Did I?  Okay, well.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I said, ‘Did sh—did she a—did she say?’

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Well, maybe she said that, but then I was like, ‘Did you have any bad runs in with the cops?’ and she’s like, ‘No.’

 

Det. Kim Davis: That just doesn’t fit.  That’s just weird.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: And, that’s what I, I mean. [laughing] That’s, I’m kind of in there too.  I don’t know if, I didn’t think she was drunk, but I know there was pills on board. I don’t know if, I don’t know, so, it wasn’t to the point.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Uh, what—do, do you carry, a Glock?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Oh, you don’t have it on you.  I didn’t pay attention.  City, the one you got in academy?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yes.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:What else you taking besides that pro-hormone?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: That’s about it.  Creatine, uh…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:What in the creatine?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Just creatine.  Monohydrates, uh, I don’t know exact ingredients in it, uh…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:But, I’m saying, is it, is it in something?  I mean, is it like an intro-workout, a pre-workout?  Are you taking…?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, pre-workouts are in creatine.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Well, give me the names of what you’re using.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: There’s a lot of supplements I take.

 

Det. Kim Davis: How much money you spend on supplements?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: It’s… costs a lot.  Supplements costs a lot.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Start rattling them.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: [laughing]Uh, C4 pre-workout, uh, No Explode, uh, let’s see, uh, Dimatize has some, uh, Condense.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Dimatize has what?  You mean, for your protein?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: They, I take their protein.  Uh…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You taking any injection?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Not at all.  Just pro-hormones.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, you got anything to offset the pro-hormone stuff?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, liver, liver pills, because I guess it’s bad to take oral, so I take liver pills and that’s about it. Multivitamins, men’s sports multivitamins.  And that’s about it.

 

01:27:16

Det. Kim Davis: All this stuff, does it make you, do you ever get mad?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t.  And…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Aggressive?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: That all is, uh, a myth.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Is it?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: It’s a myth.  That’s just based on the guy’s personality, I guess.  And whatnot.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:[long pause] Have you ever roided?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Have I did steroids?  No.  I’ve been around it in college.  NFL. I’ve seen guys do it.  College I’ve seen guys do it.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You didn’t do it?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Never did it.

 

Det. Kim Davis: How come?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I started as a true freshman in college, so I got random tested by NCA.  NCA tests us for all that, uh, as far as steroid use.  I mean, you get tested in college just for street drugs.  So, I didn’t know when randomly they could do it. I didn’t want to put—

 

Det. Kim Davis: Why weren’t the other guys worried about it?  What happened if they got caught on it?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t think they… They didn’t care. I, I cared.  I didn’t want to—I started as a true freshman.  I didn’t want to do that.  I didn’t.  It wasn’t about me.  I was a big-boned kid.  I didn’t need to get stronger.  I didn’t feel like—everything had come natural.  I didn’t feel like I needed to get faster or anything like that.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What happened if you got caught doing it in a random test?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: NCA would suspend you.  You’d be done.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Oh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Well, like anything, just, I mean, there’s always something before they ban it and stuff.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:The old android days and stuff.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, so…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you do the supplements and all that then?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, but I had a, back then you had to be a little careful as far as talk to your team doctor, what’s in this? Is this FDA approved?  Just don’t have that risk of accidentally, you know, getting tested for a small ingredient or whatnot.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, so you don’t think fifteen minutes was too long on that traffic stop?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, I…

 

Det. Kim Davis: And nothing sexual went on?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Nothing.

 

Det. Kim Davis: During that fifteen minutes?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Nothing sexual.

 

Det. Kim Davis: When you said you were going to follow her but she took too long, how long is too long?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Where you turn off the lights—okay, go ahead, wait just a little bit, wait a little bit, okay, so I hooked a U-turn and went.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Thirty seconds?  Forty-five seconds?  A minute?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Maybe a little bit longer than a minute.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What do, what was she doing? Could you see in the window?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I couldn’t.  I just saw her just pull up a little bit, kind of stall and slow creep up, and I’m like what are you doing?  Go and I’ll follow you.  And then I just, boom, hooked a U-turn and went north on north, uh, Two Thirty-Five, Broadway Extension.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  We’re going to call tomorrow.  We can’t get a hold of a polygrapher today.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And, uh, get that scheduled.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And I’ll call you on your cell phone and tell you when it is.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do you know where that, it’s at the training center.  Did—

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Where we did academy, yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Yeah.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  But I’ll call you and get, we got to get that all set up.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And then I’ll call you and get you scheduled.  Pow-wow one more time?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Sure.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Any questions?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, I don’t have any questions.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Can Daniel come?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:[laughing]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Maybe he can [inaudible] after this?

 

01:30:45

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Host:Detectives Kim David and Rocky Gregory leave the room again.  This would be their fourth time to leave the room, and after about five minutes and forty seconds, uh, Detective Rocky Gregory returns briefly to the room by himself.  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: It’s a little toasty in here.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: It is a little toasty.  We’ll leave this open.  Your pants.  These the pants you wore last, last shift?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Uh, yes.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: It is?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Yes.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. [pause]  What about your underwear?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Where they at?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Uh, the wash.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: They’re in the washer? 

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Washer.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Washer.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  All right.  Well, I need your pants.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Yeah, I didn’t figure you’d have a problem.  [laughing]

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:[laughing]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Uh, okay, we’re trying to figure out a way to speed this on along.  I know it’s been, uh, I don’t know.  What, what would you, we’re trying to figure out whether just to, figure out, whether you put pants on…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: It’s, it’s you guys.  Whatever you guys want to do.  You guys’ call.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I don’t know.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: It’s you guys’ call.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I know.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Because I’ll dr—if you want me to drop ‘em, I’ll drop ‘em.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Well, okay.  You don’t mind wearing, like, some Tyvex pants or something home?  Does that matter?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t, I don’t care.  Whatever.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Whatever.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:All right.

 

01:32:28

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Host:Detective Gregory once again steps out of the Interrogation Room.  He and Detective Davis return after just a little over two minutes.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, who, who all was home when you got home?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, my girlfriend, Carrie [redacted].

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You live with anybody else?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, I don’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Is she a policeman?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, she’s not.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Oh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Carrie [redacted]?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Carrie [redacted].

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:What’s her number?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, can I go through my phone?

 

Det. Kim Davis: Yeah.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: [Sigh]As much as I don’t want to get her involved...

 

Det. Kim Davis: We’re not going to tell her what’s going on, but we are going to—

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You tell her whatever you want to.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Yeah, we’re not going to…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, her number is going to be [redacted].

 

Det. Kim Davis: Does she work?  Are we going to, if we call?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: She does work.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Is she at work now?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: She works, uh, normal eight to give hours, Monday through Friday.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, where does she work?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: At, uh, [redacted].  Memorial and MacArthur area, around there.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:We’re getting the, that Tyvex thing going.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Don’t call her.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I’m not [laughing].

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Host:For now the sixth time, Holtzclaw is left alone in the Interrogation Room.  Both detectives return after about four and a half minutes.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Det. Kim Davis: You created some more work.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Sorry [laughing].

 

Det. Kim Davis: We were fixing to go.  I just talked to Carrie.  

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: She said she was asleep when you got home and you did not try to have sex, and you did not have sex.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I did try to have sex with her.

 

Det. Kim Davis: She says you didn’t.  And I asked her, ‘Could you have been asleep and, you know, kinda… blaaaah, no?’  And she said, ‘No.’  She—you did not try to have sex.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:As much as I don’t want to involve her, I tried to have sex with her and she was asleep.  Carrie goes to sleep pretty early.  About nine, ten, at the lat—at the latest.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, but [stuttering noises] she would know if you tried.  I’m a woman.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I know.  And [laughing].

 

Det. Kim Davis: If my husband comes home in the middle of the night and I’m like, ‘Are you kidding me?!  I’ve been asleep.’  You said you trolled around her vagina.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I did.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And you put it in a little bit. And then she said, ‘I’m tired, no.’

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I did.

 

Det. Kim Davis: She would remember that to tell me.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:She—maybe, yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: She said you did not try to have sex.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:[laughing] It’s more personal cause it’s Carrie, but I did try to have sex with Carrie.  I did.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I—I—I—I don’t know what to say, I mean, cause it just looks like I just caught you in a lie and now I don’t know what to believe.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I’m telling you.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I don’t know what to believe.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Because you tell me this.  I go to verify it.  She tells me the opposite and now I’m, now I’m wondering what you’re telling the truth about.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Maybe because she’s, she doesn’t know what the heck’s going on.

 

Det. Kim Davis: No, she doesn’t.  I didn’t tell her.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: And I’m glad, but a detective calling her, any other officer, asking her a question like that.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I know.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: She may be scared.  And I don’t want to involve her, but—

 

Det. Kim Davis: She’s involved because—

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: That’s my girlfriend.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: That’s, like—

 

Det. Kim Davis: You need her involved for you.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: But now she’s giving the story that you’re not giving.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I’m, I’m telling you, I tried to have sex with Carrie, my girlfriend.  I know she’s—

 

Det. Kim Davis: She’s going to remember your weenie twirling around her hoo-haw.  You remember that.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I know.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I don’t, I’m sorry.  I don’t care how much of a sleeper you are.  You remember, because it pisses you off in the middle of the night and you go, ‘Are you serious?!’

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I’m telling…

 

Det. Kim Davis: ‘Don’t bother me with that!’

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, maybe you should call and ask her [laughing] if she’s a deep sleeper, because there’s multiple times I’ve tried to do that.  Multiple times we’ve had sex.  Multiple times she has pushed me off.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Well, you told me that you have sex every day and she says you did not have sex today.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: We didn’t have sex today.  No, we didn’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Well, you said you have sex every day.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Mostly every day, yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So, if I call her back is she going to tell me…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: That we did not.

 

Det. Kim Davis: …that ya’ll have sex every day?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: We did not have sex, but recently, mostly, all, every day, yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I, I’m a woman and I know what it feels like to be woke up for sex, and I don’t like that, and you remember it and, and I don’t, y—y—I don’t believe you.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I’m telling you the truth.  I’m sorry.  I tried to have sex with my girlfriend.  I did.

 

01:36:52

Det. Kim Davis: I don’t know.  You’re a dude.  Does your wife get…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I could…

 

Det. Kim Davis: …pissed off [laughing] if you try to wake her up in the middle of the night and…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: She had a white, white thong on and, and a t-shirt, and…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, you talk to him.  I’m going to call her again.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Because right now I don’t believe you.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Hey, the pants.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You want me to bring them in?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: In a plastic bag?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I mean, a brown paper sack. Okay, don’t start yet.

 

[DET. KIM DAVIS EXITS THE ROOM]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Rowr.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: [laughing]And that’s probably her messaging or whatever now.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:She’s like, ‘What!?’

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: And, oh, I wish we didn’t…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Well, we’re not.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: …have to involve her, Carrie.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Well, we’re not going to tell her. You’re going to have to explain whatever the situation is.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: What’s gonna happen?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You got any questions involving this?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:[laughing]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: I mean, you—you’ve asked.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I’m getting attacked now.  I’m just feeling like, I’m, like, God… bless. [sigh]  I want DNA.  I want everything.  I want… get it done.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: We—we—we’re gonna put it to the front of the line, okay?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Get it done.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I can tell you, it usually takes a long time, but because of the situation we will put it at the front of the line, okay?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I mean, usually on this stuff we do whatever we can.

 

[DET. KIM DAVIS RE-ENTERS ROOM]

 

Det. Kim Davis: Here is shorts and a shirt.  I don’t know if the shirt will fit in the sack. Before I call Carrie…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Shorts and a shirt.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You tried to have sex with Carrie.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I tried to have…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Not somebody else?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: My girlfriend, yes.  That was in my bed, yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do you ever cheat on her?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So, it’s only Carrie right now?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Carrie.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.

 

[DET. KIM DAVIS EXITS ROOM]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: All right, man.  Put your pants in this bag and then put the… it looks like you’re gonna need the… Unless you wanna keep the shirt on.  I don’t know.  I don’t know if this shirt’s gonna be big enough for you.  You’re a big old boy.  I was gonna get a Tyvex.  I don’t know where these came from. [Shuffling noises]  Well…

 

01:39:11

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Host:At this point, Holtzclaw is alone with Detective Gregory.  Holtzclaw is undressing so that Gregory can collect his police uniform pants for testing. Holtzclaw changes into a pair of basketball shorts and a t-shirt.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Can you think of anything?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Will it be okay if I tell my family about this and?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:No, you can...

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: That’s fine.  Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Hey, it’s your life, man.  Look, we usually have to spend, we spend as much time, any time there’s an allegation, okay, trying to clear up the matter one way or the other.  Okay?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I just don’t want my girlfriend to be involved, you know, in something. [laughing] I tried to have sex with my girlfriend.  As bad as that sounds, and as bad as that sounds when she’s asleep, yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:No, no you’re fine.  Hey, I try to curl up to my wife all the time.  Hey, she shoots me down.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I mean, she’s probably, just imagine her just being all nervous and whatnot, you know?  This, [sigh]…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:We, you can get home and kind of explain everything and…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: So, what goes on from now? [phone rings]  There she is.  Jesus.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Well, you’re headed home obviously, so you’re gonna need some pants.  Why don’t you go ahead and get dressed there.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Host:Detective Gregory once again steps out of the room, leaving Holtzclaw alone for the seventh time.  Holtzclaw finishes changing clothes, and after only about a minute and a half, opens the Interrogation Room door to let Gregory know that he’s changed and ready.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: You want me to stay here?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Yeah, stay there.  Heck, we’re getting, we’re really done with you.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Just hang tight.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Can I, can I message her and say I, I’ll—cause she’s probably blowing up my phone.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Oh yeah, yeah.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Just like, hey, I’ll talk…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You’re fine.  You’re fine.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: [sigh]

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Host:Still alone in the room, Holtzclaw picks up his personal cell phone and calls Carrie, his girlfriend of the last six months. Carrie has been repeatedly calling his cell phone ever since Detective Davis (someone who she’s never even met,) called her out of the blue and started asking very personal questions about her and Holtzclaw’s sex life.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Carrie:Hello?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Hey baby.

 

Carrie:Hello.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Babe.

 

Carrie:Yeah.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I need to [laughing] I need to tell you what’s going on.  It’s crazy.

 

Carrie:Okay, well don’t [inaudible].

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I said, when will, I’m on, I’m basically on my way home and I’d like to talk to you.  What’s going on, is, is crazy.

 

Carrie:Okay.  You’re on your way home?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, gimme, uh, they gotta give me a ride so I don’t know.  Probably like ten, fifteen minutes.

 

Carrie:Til you leave?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Til I, get, fifteen, yeah, around there. I don’t know.  Fifteen, twenty, thirty minutes.  Around there.

 

Carrie:So, [inaudible] fifteen minutes after that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yes.

 

Carrie:Seriously, what’s going on [inaudible]?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t know [laughing] it’s, I—I gotta tell you it’s, it’s crazy.  It just, it’s nuts.  I gotta… So, I, I love you, okay?

 

Carrie:Okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I love you.

 

Carrie:Love you too.  Bye.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Bye.

 

01:42:48

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Host:Shortly after Holtzclaw hangs up with his girlfriend, two uniformed Oklahoma City Police Officers enter the room.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Hey, Dan.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Hey, man.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Boy, it’s hot in here.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, it is.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Hey, uh, until this investigation gets all completed, what’s going on, we’re gonna put you on Administrative Leave with Pay, okay?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Just part of procedures.  You know?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: [laughing]

 

Unidentified Officer #1:They gotta do this until it gets all taken care of, okay?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:So, what I’m gonna do.  I’m gonna give you this to sign that you’re receiving it.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:And I’m gonna give you a copy to take home.  I want you to read it very carefully when you get home.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I will.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Cause there’s some detail stuff that people forget to read.  You know?  Such as, you gotta check in with me on every Tuesday morning before nine o’clock.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Call me at the station and just make sure I know who you are and where you’re at.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Mm hmm.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:There’s some things we’ve got to take from you.  We already, I think the firearm’s already in there?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yes, sir.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:And, and your deal. Um, do you have your, um, your—your shirt in here?  We’ll get your badge off that.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Is that the only badge you have?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yes, because the other badge is upstairs cause it was, uh, it got lost in a foot chase, so…

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: The other one’s upstairs.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Upstairs where?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, with Susan, uh, Chief Assistant.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Okay, so, you haven’t got a replacement yet?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I haven’t yet.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:You have not.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Not yet.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Okay, well, we need to find out about that as well.  So, you just have the one of that and whatever.  Let’s go ahead and get that from you.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:And we’re going to need your radio too.  I’ll just kind of check it off as we go here.

 

Unidentified Officer #2:Thank you, sir.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:So, we got the badge and the ra—that radio there.  Lieutenant Gregory’s going to take you home too, give you a ride home.

 

Unidentified Officer #2:Are you still up on North May?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yes.  Yes, sir.

 

Unidentified Officer #2:Fourteen. Fourteen Two Hundred?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yes, sir.

 

Unidentified Officer #2:Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Okay, we got the badge, and then do you have your commission car and entry card with you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I do.

 

Unidentified Officer #2:And this, the seal missing is from, from the last…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Unidentified Officer #2:…foot chase thing, right?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yes, sir.  Yes, sir.

 

Unidentified Officer #2:Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Okay, we have the entry card and we have the—

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: CLEET card.

 

Unidentified Officer #2:CLEET card, okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:We need your entry card.  Is that your entry card?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, this, is this, I’m sorry.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:What do you have here?  Okay, is that all?

 

Unidentified Officer #2:Uh, CLEET card, his commission card.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Okay, we’ll take all that.

 

Unidentified Officer #2:And his, his entry card.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:We got all that. And he’ll, uh, do you have anything else besides your firearm?  Do you have a, uh, a shotgun?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I do have a shotgun at home.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Is it in your vehicle?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: It’s at home.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:It’s at home, okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Unidentified Officer #2:I’ll get that.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:He’ll grab that.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:When he goes with you, he’ll grab that.  Uh, he’ll probably grab your radio charger as well.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:And any spare batteries you have there.  You don’t have a taser?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t have a taser.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Nothing like that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, I don’t.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Uh, we have your, I have the keys to your car.  Do you have any, uh, keys to the station or anything like that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: No, I don’t.

 

01:45:15

Unidentified Officer #1:Okay, all right. Then this will be it.  Okay, I’m going to let you sign this that you’re receiving it, okay?  Then I’m going to give you your own copy, okay, so you can read it.  Now, you can’t wear your uniform.  Of course, we have all your badge and gun.  You can’t work extra jobs.  You can’t drive City vehicles. [mumbling] And then, y—you know, those guys will be in touch with you for any further follow up with that, you know.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:And if you, be sure and read this, like I said, because, you know, if you go out of town you’ve got to call.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I do?  

 

Unidentified Officer #1:And let us know first.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:If you go, uh, if you’re gonna go out of state, you need to get permission from us.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:[inaudible] Read it very carefully.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:That’s your copy right there and I’m gonna witness it.  [pause] Okay, I think that’s it.  Arthur?

 

Unidentified Officer #2:Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:And you’ll take care, uh, let me, I’ll take the, uh… [pause] yeah, I—I’ll  take that and the badge if you want too and the radio.

 

Unidentified Officer #2:Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:I’ll, I’ll just take that.  If you could get the…

 

[PHONE RINGS]

 

Unidentified Officer #2:And I’ll get, I’ll get the things that he has at home.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Yeah, and I. I…

 

Unidentified Officer #2:Let me call you back.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:I’m pretty sure that, uh, Melvin’s working tonight.

 

Unidentified Officer #2:Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:And he can just let you in my office and stick it in there.

 

Unidentified Officer #2:Okay, I will.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:I’m, I’m almost positive he is working tonight.

 

Unidentified Officer #2:Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:I would, I would guess.

 

Unidentified Officer #2:And he’s gonna take these things home?

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Yes.  He can take those home wit—you can take those home, that, those items with you, you can take.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:All right?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Okay, thanks Arthur.

 

Unidentified Officer #2:I will, I will go bring those things back.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Okay.

 

[UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER #1 EXITS ROOM]

[PARTIAL CONVERSATION CAN BE HEARD IN HALLWAY]

 

Unidentified Officer #1:I’ll, uh, [inaudible]

 

Unidentified Officer #2:Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:I do need, Arthur, I do need [inaudible].

 

Unidentified Officer #2: Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #ff1:[Inaudible]

 

Unidentified Officer #2:Okay, yeah. Let’s go ahead and grab.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:All right, thank you.

 

Unidentified Officer #2:Sorry about that. Dan, you ready?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Yeah.

 

01:47:19

Host:And, like that, it’s over.  Daniel Holtzclaw is led out of the Interrogation Room and the two officers drive him to his apartment on the Northwest side of town. There, his girlfriend waits for him to try to make sense of everything that has transpired since he left for work earlier that afternoon.  This is going to conclude this episode.  As I mentioned earlier, I will next be posting a condensed version of Holtzclaw’s interrogation with my commentary.  I hope you will join me as I point out the techniques that detectives apply in this interrogation, and what bodes well for Daniel’s defense and what creates some red flags.  I will also be posting the transcript of Holtzclaw’s interrogation and the video to this season’s homepage under episode two at holtzclawtrial.com.  This serialized podcast of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw follows the timeline and perspective of the investigation but with the scrutiny of the defense.  If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to subscribe and give us a five star review.  If you would like to know more and see many of the files used to compile this episode, please visit this season’s homepage at holtzclawtrial.com.  You can also follow updates on our Facebook page at In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw, or on Twitter @HoltzclawTrial.  Bates Investigates - Season One: the Daniel Holtzclaw case is researched, produced, and edited by me, Brian Bates.  This has been a bug stomper production.  

EPISODE 3

Bates Investigates

Episode 3 ׀Daniel Holtzclaw: Daniel Holtzclaw Interrogation Reflection

 

[OPENING MUSIC]

 

Disclaimer: This podcast deals with adult subject matter, including depictions of drug addiction, prostitution, sexual assault, and rape.  Parental guidance is suggested.

 

00:37[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE]

 

Newscaster: Officer Daniel Holtzclaw, with the Police Department for three years, is accused of raping and sexually assaulting women he pulled over while on the job.

 

Jannie Ligons: He said, ‘Come on, come on, just a minute, just a minute’. I say, ‘Sir, I can’t do this’.  I say, ‘you gonna shoot...’

 

Det. Kim Davis: Tell me your description of him.

 

Sherri Ellis: He’s black.

 

Det. Kim Davis: He’s b—okay, he’s a black male.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What did your daughter tell you?

 

Amanda Gates: She said, ‘I met this really hot cop’.

 

Shardayreon Hill: So, this is good evidence?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Well, you tell me.

 

[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE ENDS]

 

Timestamp: The following episode contains investigative events which occurred on June 18, 2014.

 

01:23

Host:Welcome back to Bates Investigates, the podcast - Season One - the State of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw.  I am your host, licensed Private Investigator, and original member of the Daniel Holtzclaw defense team, Brian Bates.  This serialized podcast is presented from the perspective of the prosecution, but with the scrutiny of the defense: the prosecution’s timeline, the prosecution’s evidence, the prosecution’s theories. However, I do not take those items at their face value, like so many within the mainstream media and the public has up to this point.  I apply the scrutiny, or the perspective, or dare I say, reality of the defense.  In this episode, I am going to do exactly what I was fearful my critics would accuse me of doing if I hadn’t released the entirety of Daniel Holtzclaw’s interrogation in last week’s episode.  I'm going to condense the interrogation and cherry pick it in this episode, and give you my thoughts and insights, both what boded well for Holtzclaw and what ultimately raised red flags.  I know episode two was a marathon episode coming in at just under two hours.  But it's an important piece to this puzzle.  To many people it is that interrogation that made up their minds as to Holtzclaw’s guilt or innocence.  If you put ten people in a room and play that interrogation, five will tell you it conclusively shows a guilty man and five will tell you they have no doubt that they just listened to a completely innocent man profess his innocence and that declaration fell upon deaf ears.  Why is that?  It's pretty simple, actually, bias.  We all have our own bias.  We are bias either positively or negatively towards law enforcement.  We have a bias for alleged sexual assault victims, or we have a bias to question the legitimacy of alleged sexual assault victims.  We have underlying racist tendencies, whether we admit to them or not.  We apply the “what would I do in this situation bias?”  We become biased by third party information or misinformation. The list goes on and on.

 

3:45

When I was first hired to work on this case, I had not met Daniel Holtzclaw or his family.  I was simply hired by his defense attorney to try and figure out if Daniel Holtzclaw was lying, and what exactly he was lying about.  Why?  Because the sad reality is that many—actually, I dare say most—criminal defense clients lie to their defense team.  They either claim to be completely innocent, or they claim the charges are completely overblown. And in some cases, that's very true.  The problem becomes trying to figure out which clients are being truthful and which clients are lying.  And the lies, they are important to identify because the lies are the potential landmines in the defense’s strategy.  Those lies can explode in your face and be the difference between a plea, a guilty verdict, or complete exoneration.  So why, why do criminal defense clients lie to their defense team?  In my over a decade of working on criminal cases, I'd say it comes down to two things: the first, denial.  They simply can't come to terms with what they've done and their culpability in those criminal actions.  Or two, they are fearful if they admit to the crimes, then their defense team will not try as hard to help them avoid a criminal record or even incarceration.  The first thing I did when I was asked to take a look at this case, back in 2014, was to watch the interrogation video multiple times.  The first time was just to get a feel for the interrogation.  The second time was to take copious notes.  What was the pattern or outline of the interrogation from the detectives’ perspective?  What interrogation technique was being utilized?  And most importantly, what exactly did Daniel Holtzclaw say?  And how does what he said differ from what Jannie Ligons said?  And whose version does the evidence actually support?  What I didn't pay much attention to were what so many within the court of public opinion actually fixate on… Holtzclaw’s his body language, his speech patterns, and well, whatnot.  I learned long ago that unless you have something that go on, like the defendant’s “normal behavior” under stress, or know the tells when that person is lying, then it's simply too easy to become distracted, misinterpret, or inadvertently reinforce any bias you may have by overanalyzing how a person is sitting, where they are looking, how they are talking.  Is that a nervous tic?  Or is it a tell?  And what does it all mean?

 

 

6:25

Unfortunately, Holtzclaw was not given that same unbiased consideration by sex crimes detectives Kim Davis and Rocky Gregory.  As I pointed out in episode one, Detective Davis admits that before she ever even scrutinized a single piece of evidence, or even identified Holtzclaw as her suspect, that she had already determined that Ligons was, in fact, a victim, and that she was telling the truth.  Detective Davis' determination very early on to ensure that Holtzclaw was charged with one or more crimes was made even more evident when she obstructed Holtzclaw’s right to a fair investigation by forbidding other detectives to utilize a very common investigative tool, the photo line-up.  With that opinion already firmly planted in her subconscious, the interrogation only served to reinforce that bias, and there's a term for it: confirmation bias.  This from the Encyclopaedia Britannica: Confirmation bias is the tendency to produce information by looking for or interpreting information that is consistent with ones existing beliefs.  This biased approach to decision making is largely unintentional, and often results in ignoring inconsistent information.  Existing beliefs can include one's expectations in a given situation, and predictions about a particular outcome.  People are especially likely to process information to support their own beliefs when the issue is highly important or self-relevant.  Needless to say, both detectives Kim Davis and Rocky Gregory have openly admitted that this case was the biggest case of their careers. You'll recall from episode one, only an hour or two before this interrogation, Detective Davis was pulled aside and told, “The eyes of the department” were on her.  After I spent most of the day watching and re-watching Holtzclaw’s interrogation, I next met with Holtzclaw’s family and asked them to watch the video and tell me how they interpreted Daniel’s body language and verbal responses, since only they knew how Daniel reacted in such situations and would know what's considered his “normal.”  Now I'm going to play a portion of a conversation I had with Daniel's father, Eric.  Eric Holtzclaw has spent much of his life in law enforcement both while in the military and as a civilian.  Back in June of 2014, Eric Holtzclaw was, and still is today, a Lieutenant with another police department in another city in Oklahoma.  Daniel’s High School hometown actually.

 

9:08[RECORDING BEGINS]

Host: You all went in the conference room and you watched the video. 

 

Eric Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Host:I left you alone and you watched it.  What—what was your im—impression upon watching that video?

 

Eric Holtzclaw:A couple things struck me r—right away was that I felt h—they made him feel very uncomfortable, uh, cause of the questioning.  They started talking about things that really didn’t pertain to what the allegations were. Uh, his sexual preference, which hand has he masturbated with… uh, she was talking this vulgar stuff that, that you wouldn’t need to talk to a police officer that way.  Maybe some street thug that you’re trying to est—establish a rapport, but what she had was an opposite effect with, with Daniel.  Made him feel uncomfortable.  And he was talking about private sexual matters, that you’re talking to another police officer, not some street thug or some, uh, known sex offender, or, or something like that.  So, I thought that was really weird.  And then I think Daniel, still, when I look back at that deal, he was not aware of what they had already placed a bias on.  Uh, but also, I felt Daniel felt uncomfortable.  But I also said he looked very honest and truthful in the way he was answering.  That’s the way he would answer something.  That he was very serious and very scared, I think, at, uh, the way that he was being talked to because I think he re—started realizing, ‘what’s this about?’  I says, I should stop this lady.  And they’re talking about, ‘Did you show em your penis?  Did you, di—sh—see her your boobs?  Did you… ha ha!’  And all this kinda wor—verbage she was using.  So, uh, I think he was really miffed at what they were trying to place on him.  And I don’t think he realized the gravity of the situation during the interview.  In fact, he was trying to, trying to stay calm, I think, and say, ‘You can do anything.  Give me a polygraph, take my DNA.  I stopped this lady and I let her go and now I’m being accused of sexual assault.’  And, uh, and I think he was a little miffed at why he, why he was being targeted on that.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

11:25

Host:   There's a lot to this interrogation and a lot to unpack, so let's jump in.  I want to share something that many of you probably don't know… when an officer is promoted to detective within the Oklahoma City Police Department, there is no “Detective School” they attend.  Most of their training is simply on the job training shadowing another detective, and if that detective has bad habits, they are likely to be passed on to the next detective. That said, like all law enforcement officers, there are opportunities for continuing education: weekend or week long seminars on various topics, like Beware of Confirmation Bias and How to Conduct a Proper Interrogation.  We know confirmation bias is already taken hold in this investigation, like a cancer, and unless it's addressed only continues to grow.  But what can we learn from the interrogation itself?  It appears that detectives are using some sort of a hybrid version of the Reid technique during their interrogation with Holtzclaw.  The Reid technique is a technique first developed in the 1940s to elicit confessions from suspects.  It's a three prong technique: isolation, maximization, and then, minimization.  Basically, it's the technique often portrayed on TV shows and movies.  You first isolate the suspect from everyone else; thus, the tiny uncomfortable windowless room.  You tell the suspect you've got a lot of evidence and it doesn't look good for them.  You follow up with some scenarios on how you think they committed the crime.  Basically, you play the part of the bad cop, then you abruptly change direction and you go with the good cop approach.  You comfort the defendant, you tell them you understand how this could have happened, and that if they would just cooperate with a confession, good things will come of it.  The interrogation begins ominously enough.

 

13:23[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory:Welcome to our domain.  Now, what’s your first name?

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host:Daniel is left to sit alone and uncomfortably until Detective Davis enters the room.  Within three minutes of Daniel’s arrival, the tables are turned on him. While he has read the Miranda warning many times to those he’s arrested, this will be the first time he’s ever been on the receiving end.

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Kim Davis:You have the right to remain silent.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis:You understand that?  Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of law.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Do you understand that?  You have the right to talk to a lawyer and have him or her present with you while you’re being questioned.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Do you understand that?

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host:This is the point where, as a member of hundreds of defense teams, I would have advised Daniel to politely, yet firmly, exercise his rights and not said another word without an attorney present.  But, Daniel is both caught off guard, not fully aware of the extent of the allegations against him, and he’s also a twenty-seven year old naïve enough to think that if he hasn’t doesn’t anything wrong then he has no harm in talking.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Kim Davis:Read this out loud.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:[clears throat] I have read the statement of my rights and understand what my rights are.  I am willing to make a statement and answer any questions at this time.  I do not want a attorney present at this time.  I understand and know that what I’m doing, no promises or threats have been made to me, and no pressure or force of any kind has been used against me.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Agree?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Agree.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Sign.  Print.  [pen scratching]

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host:Only six minutes into the interrogation and you’ve gotten your suspect to waive his rights?  And how does Detective Rocky Gregory choose to play his cards?

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory:I masturbate right and left.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Oh, [laughing].

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Does that work?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:[laughing]

 

Det. Kim Davis: Oh, I think I do that left handed.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Very good.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Well, I am dominant left.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You are?

 

Det. Kim Davis: Yes.  [long pause]

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

15:22

Host:That awkward silence is only magnified when you see the corresponding video.  The idea is simple enough.  Bring yourself down to whatever level you think will make your suspect feel most at ease so that he will open up.  It has the opposite effect.  You can visibly see how uncomfortable Holtzclaw is with the talk of masturbation and what hand someone uses.  This play by detectives is just another example of their bias towards Holtzclaw. They had already sized him up as an overgrown child.  A jock, with a locker room vocabulary.  Their assessment, however, could not be more wrong.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Kim Davis: You had said, and we told you that, that there was a traffic stop.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: That somebody made some allegations against an officer.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: They don’t know the officer’s name. They don’t—none of that.  Th—and you said that you made a traffic stop after work.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: But you didn’t call it in.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I didn’t call it in.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Where was that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:It was about Northeast Fiftieth and Lincoln, just to the west.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Tell me about that stop.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host:For the first time in this investigation, we hear Holtzclaw’s version of events in his own words.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Daniel Holtzclaw: I was going westbound on Northeast Fiftieth, probably a block just east of, uh, Lincoln, I see a red Grand Prix, or Grand Am, in my right lane—in the outside lane, I’m on in the inside lane—the car swerves, and so at the time I’m thinking okay it’s probably a drunk person or maybe got excited cause he saw a cop.  So, I kind of f—fall behind it, kind of drifting just a little bit, not crossing lane lines, nothing crazy, so I light it up.  Because it, at first, the first traffic violation I saw at first, when it swerved.  And that was just west of, uh, Northeast Fiftieth and Lincoln.  And then, made contact.  It was a black female.  Um, asked for license and insurance.  Um, stated that she didn’t have insurance, gave me an ID.  At the time, I’m, like, ‘Do you have a valid insurance or valid license?’  She said, ‘No.’  I told her, ‘I just got off work, I mean, [laugh], what’s the deal?  You know, why, why you swerving?’  And she says, uh, ‘I’m just trying to go home to Ann Arbor-ish on the northwest side…’ to see her daughter or something like that.  Um, so, I asked, ‘Is there anything on board as far as the vehicle?  Is it okay if I search your vehicle?’  And what not. And she said, ‘The only thing that’s inside there is a kool aid cup.’  I’m like, ‘Is there anything inside of that kool aid?  Is there liquor or anything inside that kool aid?’ She’s, ‘No.’  I’m like, ‘Okay, is there anything else inside there?’  She says there’s pills.  I’m like, ‘Is that the only thing?’  And then, so, I was, like, ‘Can I have permission to search your car?’  She says yes. I go inside the car and see a lot of pills.  But, uh…

 

Det. Kim Davis: What kind of pills?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I didn’t really…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Like scattered pills or in a bottle pills?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:She said it’s hydrocodone pills, but I just quickly glanced, looked at it, I think I saw her name on the prescription bottle, so I didn’t…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Oh, so it was a bottle?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Oh, okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:There was several bottles in her purse.  And then, so, at that time, I just returned back to her.  Was, like, um, ‘Okay, I saw your pills.  I didn’t see any alcohol.  I sniffed the drink, didn’t smell any alcohol in the kool aid.’  I’m like, ‘Okay, I’m—I’m just off work.  I’m tired.  Um, get your license taken care of.’

 

Det. Kim Davis: So, she didn’t have a driver’s license?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:She didn’t have a driver’s license. And I was just, like, ‘Go to DPS. Uh, Department of Public Safety, on King.  Get that taken care of.’  And I cut her loose after that.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Then where’d you go?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Then went straight home.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Um…

 [RECORDING ENDS]

 

18:57

Host:Detective Davis immediately latches onto the fact that Holtzclaw made the traffic stop in question while off the clock and while his computer and AVL were intentionally turned off.  Daniel explains that he doesn’t often make off the clock traffic stops, but that he felt he should in this case, sort of officer intuition.  I think it’s important to point out, it’s not against police policy to make traffic stops while off the clock.  Especially since Daniel has a take home patrol car.  Daniel has done nothing wrong by pulling Ligons over.  That said, turning off his computer and AVL is against police policy.  But, as I pointed out in episode one, that policy was fairly new, and prosecutors were forced to concede at trial that they had no proof Holtzclaw was even aware of the new policy.  Regardless, as it has already been pointed out, Holtzclaw readily owned up to making the stop earlier that morning when it came up in line-up.  Detectives Davis and Gregory will have Officer Holtzclaw go over the traffic stop several more times during the interrogation.  The goal is to see if he changes his story to try to lessen his culpability.  He doesn’t. In fact, his version of events is rock solid and mostly matches Jannie Ligons’ version, except in several very key areas, as noted by Detective Davis.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Kim Davis: A thing that kind of concerns me is everything you’re telling me is dead on to what she says. Everything.  Except the sexual stuff.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host:While that’s important to note, it’s not completely accurate and all of the discrepancies will become important as the investigation moves forward.  Let’s go over the points that differ in Holtzclaw’s version of events when compared to Jannie Ligons’.  While Holtzclaw denies any sexual assault occurred, he also denies that he ever made Ligons place her hands on his patrol car while he patted her down. Furthermore, Ligons also asserted that Holtzclaw placed his hands on the top of his patrol car to shield the view from passing motorists.  That discrepancy did not go unnoticed by the detectives, and CSI technicians were at that very moment scouring the exterior of Holtzclaw’s patrol car for fingerprint or DNA proof that Ligons’ version of events was supported by forensic evidence. I will be discussing the result of that effort in the next episode.

 

21:38

Holtzclaw also maintained that Ligons did not expose her breasts nor pull her pants down during the traffic stop.  The detectives counter those assertions by insisting that the video from the surveillance cameras may show something different.  Holtzclaw remains firm in his answer.  As for the “sex stuff”, Jannie Ligons just hours ago submitted herself for a SANE test.  The results of that test will also be discussed in the next episode.  Again, when Daniel is insistent that no sexual activity occurred, the detectives respond by claiming the video shows a lot of things going on and that it’s not looking good for Holtzclaw.  The detectives even go so far as to claim they found public hairs and tell Holtzclaw that they are going to test them. Holtzclaw, once again, is unwavering. Another important deviation from Ligons’ version of events is the fact that Holtzclaw repeatedly mentions the presence of “pills on board,” which is police slang for the assertion he found pills in pill bottles marked with Ligons’ name when he searched her purse.  Ligons denies having any pills on her and detectives make no attempt to verify if she has any valid prescriptions.  The first time that question is explored is by the defense and just prior to trial.  I’ll give you my thoughts on the pills in a future episode.  One thing that that I noted was the amount of details that does indeed match Ligons’ claims.  Holtzclaw freely admits Ligons was cooperative, but also very nervous, even frightened, continuously mentioning Holtzclaw’s side arm and the fact she thought he might shoot her.  Had Holtzclaw had a guilty conscience, I do not think he would have included those details in his version of events.  It would have been much easier, and to his benefit, to simply say she was not cooperative. She was belligerent, she was mad at him… that would have possibly given the detectives a reason to suspect Ligons was making the allegations up.  But Holtzclaw is a straight shooter.  He freely admits to details that he has to know may send up red flags.  Holtzclaw initially thinks the complaint is limited to Ligons claiming he may have touched her butt, made her expose herself, or that she was offended by him standing with his crotch too close to her while she sat in the back of his patrol car and he stood between the car and the open door.  About twenty-two minutes into the interrogation, things get a bit more ominous as the detectives tell Holtzclaw they need to take his “buccals”.  That’s cop lingo for they need to swab the inside of his mouth for DNA.  That DNA will be compared to any DNA found from Ligons’ rape kit.  It’s also at this time that Detectives Gregory and Davis point out the following to Holtzclaw.

 

24:44[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory:We kind of bring you in here to…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:…see how truthful you are.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Now you need to kinda, kinda think of a few different things here.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  We pulled up a lot of video around that area…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:…after these allegations. 

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay?  She also haved a SANE exam, which you know what consists of.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:There’s a reason why we wanted your buccals.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  Now, I mean, we can go through a couple different things…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:…of why we’ve got you in here, but… you sure there’s nothing you wanna?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Nothing.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:So, if we go off the video and watch that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You’re still gonna stick with your story.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Yes, sir.

 

Det. Kim Davis: If we go off DNA?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:DNA, as well.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Should we show you the video?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:If—yes!

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You, you do wanna see it?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Do I?  Yes.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:So, there’s nothing that you…

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Everything that I recall of that night is what I—what was asked and everything.  That’s what happened.

 

Det. Kim Davis: If I—have I maybe not asked enough questions?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I think everything covered as far as that.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do you recall putting your penis in her mouth?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I don’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Would you recall that if you did it?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:If I did it, yeah.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host:Holtzclaw seems unfazed by these far more serious allegations.  In fact, it’s his composure and lack of emotion that I often hear from the public is what made some feel he must be guilty.  I personally never read his reactions that way.  Holtzclaw doesn’t have a reputation for being explosive, having a temper, or even raising his voice.  Virtually everyone I’ve ever spoken to who knew Holtzclaw consistently said that while he was a leader, he was more subdued, or the silent type. Many people have even described him as shy, but confident.  Holtzclaw seems to be reflecting those characteristics throughout this interrogation. Around thirty minutes into the interrogation, Detective Gregory switches gears and mentions another potential victim, Terry Morris.  Morris is a forty-three year old black female who is admittedly perpetually homeless, with addiction and mental health issues.  Morris made an off-the-cuff sexual assault allegation against an unknown officer in recent weeks.  Detectives Davis and Gregory know that Holtzclaw encountered Morris in early May, or about five weeks prior to the Jannie Ligons stop. 

 

27:19[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory: Let’s switch up for a second.  We had another girl, okay?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You probably don’t, not necessarily gonna remember the name, but her name is Terry Morris.  Okay?  Black female. Um, supposedly, you promised her a ride to the City Rescue Mission.  This ring a bell?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You did a—a—a traffic stop with her, uh, she thought you ran her for warrants.  Clicking?  You drove her around.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Unh uh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: No?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:That name doesn’t—I don’ recall a name like that.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  She’s claiming the same thing.  The exact same thing.  And here again, for whatever reason, things are pointing at you again.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Now this is before even this incident this morning.  Traffic stop. Not logged in.  All that stuff.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host:In the detectives’ minds, the Morris allegations are identical to the Ligons’ allegations.  An off the clock encounter that leads to forced or coerced oral sex from the alleged victim.  Further investigation that we will explore in the coming weeks proves that the similarities in these two allegations are almost non-existent.  Two additional questions that Detective Davis asked and Daniel answered will have particular importance as the case evolves.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Kim Davis: Do you run everybody that you come in contact with?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Majority of the time.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do you give people rides sometimes?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I do give people rides.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do you?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I do.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host:Eventually, detectives get around to what is probably the most controversial part of the interrogation… did Daniel Holtzclaw try to have sex with his then girlfriend when he got home from the Ligons’ traffic stop?

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory: When you went home, was anybody home?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Uh, my girlfriend was home?

 

[simultaneously]     Det. Kim Davis: Do—do you live with her?

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did you get laid?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Huh?  No, she doesn’t.  She just stayed.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did you get laid?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Uh, messed around, yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What’s messed around?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Uh.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Sex?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I guess…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: We’re all adults.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:We almost had sex, and she was tired.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What’d you do?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:So, my penis went around her vagina, and then, maybe went a little bit in, and then she pushed me off and said, ‘No. We don’t wanna… I’m tired.’  And I was, like, okay.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

29:49

Host:Eventually, Detective Davis gets around to excusing herself and calling Holtzclaw’s girlfriend, Carrie.  She’ll ask Carrie if Holtzclaw did indeed try and have sex with her when he got home earlier that same morning.  Detective Davis doesn’t like the answer she gets. But, in her mind, it’s the answer she’s been looking for.   A lie.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Kim Davis: I just talked to Carrie.  

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: She said she was asleep when you got home and you did not try to have sex, and you did not have sex.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I did try to have sex with her.

 

Det. Kim Davis: She says you didn’t.  And I asked her, ‘Could you have been asleep and you kinda… blaaaah, no?’  And she said, ‘No.’  She—you did not try to have sex.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:As much as I don’t want to involve her, I tried to have sex with her and she was asleep.  Carrie goes to sleep pretty early.  About nine, ten, at the lat—at the latest.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, but [stuttering noises] she would know if you tried.  I’m a woman.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I know.  And [laughing].

 

Det. Kim Davis: If my husband comes home in the middle of the night and I’m like, ‘Are you kidding me?!  I’ve been asleep.’  You said you trolled around her vagina.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I did.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And you put it in a little bit. And then she said, ‘I’m tired, no.’

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I did.

 

Det. Kim Davis: She would remember that to tell me.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:She—maybe, yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: She said you did not try to have sex.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:[laughing] It’s more personal cause it’s Carrie, but I did try to have sex with Carrie.  I did.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I—I—I—I don’t know what to say, I mean, cause it just looks like I just caught you in a lie and now I don’t know what to believe.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

31:20

Host:I don’t know if Detective Davis really considers this a lie on Holtzclaw’s part, or if she just knows she needs to make him think he was caught in a lie so that maybe he’ll start to crack. Personally, I don’t know why Detective Davis assumes it’s Holtzclaw telling the lie and not the girlfriend.  I do know this: if some stranger called my wife while she’s at the gym and asked if I tried to have sex that morning, my wife is probably going to tell that person off. At the very least, she is going to deny it because it’s simply nobody’s business.  To put Carrie’s response in perspective, she’s at a public gym working out; she’s literally a pastor’s daughter; and she’s the sister of a prosecutor in the Sex Crimes unit of the Oklahoma County DA’s office.  She’s also been trying to get ahold of Holtzclaw on his phone for the past hour.  Lastly, Carrie also suffers from insomnia and takes sleeping medication most nights. She’ll later testify that Daniel may have very well tried to have sex with her and that she simply doesn’t remember it because she was in such a deep sleep, and it’s not uncommon for Holtzclaw to initiate sex when he gets off work.  The mood in the room changes.  Detective Davis, who’s playing the part of the bad cop, calls Daniel out as a liar. She’ll continue this line of attack for the rest of the interrogation.  It does get to Daniel, but there will be no confession.  Daniel is adamant that he didn’t do anything wrong and that he wants the detectives to “get it done”.  He repeatedly says this.  He wants the DNA tested.  He wants the video analyzed.  He wants a polygraph.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory: You got any questions involving this?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:[laughing]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: I mean, you—you’ve asked.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I’m getting attacked now.  I’m just feeling like, I’m, like, God… bless. [sigh]  I want DNA.  I want everything.  I want… get it done.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: We—we—we’re gonna put it to the front of the line, okay?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Get it done.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You’d be willing to take a polygraph on it?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: We’re gonna call tomorrow.  We can’t get ahold of the polygrapher today.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: On the video, are we gonna see her boobies?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:You shouldn’t see her boobs.  I didn’t see her boobs.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Are we gonna see her pull her pants down?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:I didn’t see her pull her pants down.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Are we gonna see your penis out?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Nope.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Are we gonna see your penis go in her mouth?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Are we gonna get any DNA to that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

33:54

Host:Daniel repeatedly expresses his desire to cooperate fully and to get this investigation over with as soon as possible. Daniel wants to clear his name desperately because he is very aware what these sort of allegations can do to negatively impact an officer’s career.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Daniel Holtzclaw:I’ve never been in trouble like this before.  Never got accused of anything like this or nothing.  I’ve heard of officers going through this and, and, what not, and that’s something I don’t want my rep to be, you know, about.  You know, I’m, I’m a good officer, I, I don’t, that’s not me. That’s not me.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host:As the detectives wrap up the nearly two hour interrogation, they turn their attention to Holtzclaw’s uniform pants.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory: Your pants.  These the pants you wore last, last shift?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Uh, yes.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: It is?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Yes.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  What about your underwear?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Where they at?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Uh, the wash.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: They’re in the washer? 

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Washer.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Washer.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  All right.  Well, I need your pants.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host:As the detectives step out of the room, Holtzclaw asks if he can call his girlfriend and let her know he’s going to be heading home soon.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory: We—we’re really done with you.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Just hang tight.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Can I, can I message her and say I, I’ll—cause she’s probably blowing up my phone.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Oh yeah, yeah.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw:Just like, hey, I’ll talk…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You’re fine.  You’re fine.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: [sigh]

 

Carrie:Hello?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Hey baby.

 

Carrie:Hello.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Babe.

 

Carrie:Yeah.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I need to [laughing] I need to tell you what’s going on.  It’s crazy.

 

Carrie:Okay, well don’t [inaudible].

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I said, when will, I’m on, I’m basically on my way home and I’d like to talk to you.  What’s going on, is, is crazy.

 

Carrie:Okay.  You’re on your way home?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, gimme, uh, they gotta give me a ride so I don’t know.  Probably like ten, fifteen minutes.

 

Carrie:Til you leave?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Til I, get, fifteen, yeah, around there. I don’t know.  Fifteen, twenty, thirty minutes.  Around there.

 

Carrie:So, [inaudible] fifteen minutes after that?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yes.

 

Carrie:Seriously, what’s going on [inaudible]?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I don’t know [laughing] it’s, I—I gotta tell you it’s, it’s crazy.  It just, it’s nuts.  I gotta… So, I, I love you, okay?

 

Carrie:Okay.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I love you.

 

Carrie:Love you too.  Bye.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Bye.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

36:37

Host:It’s important to note what can be observed in the video version of this interrogation when Holtzclaw changes out of his uniform pants and into a pair of gym shorts.  Holtzclaw is not just wearing pants.  There is an entire system of layers underneath his clothing.  For starters, his underwear.  They are athletic compression shorts that are extremely tight fitting and have no fly.  He’s also wearing a muscle shirt, a bulletproof vest with a flap that hangs below his groin, and then his uniform shirt.  The shirt is actually physically held in place below his groin by shirt stays that connect the bottom of his shirt to the top of his socks.  The purpose is specifically to keep his uniform shirt tucked tightly into his pants.  As Holtzclaw confirmed to me, and his girlfriend would later testify, this layering makes even simple tasks like using the restroom, cumbersome to say the least.  Yet, time after time, accusers who have no idea the complexity of Holtzclaw’s uniform will insist that he exposed his penis through the fly of his pants with little to no effort at all.  Detective Gregory returns to the room to collect Holtzclaw’s uniform.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory: Put your pants in this bag and then put the… it looks like you’re gonna need the… Unless you wanna keep the shirt on. I don’t know.  I don’t know if this shirt’s gonna be big enough for you. You’re a big old boy.  I was gonna get a Tyvex.  I don’t know where these came from. [Shuffling noises]

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host:That rustling noise you just heard is Detective Gregory opening a paper evidence sack and literally placing his ungloved hand into and throughout the bag.  By all measure, Detective Gregory has shown his complete incompetence by violating a very basic evidence collection rule – do nothing to contaminate evidence collected for DNA analysis.  By placing his hand inside the bag, he has just introduced and possibly transferred any DNA on his hands into the sterile environment of the evidence bag. Furthermore, Detective Gregory allows Holtzclaw to roll up his uniform pants and place them in the evidence bag, all while his belt is still in place and possibly transferring DNA to multiple locations.

 

39:22

What’s also important to note at this time is what detectives choose not to collect from Daniel Holtzclaw… they decide not to ask for his complete uniform.  They let him keep his uniform shirt, bulletproof vest, and t-shirt—all of which clearly hung below his waistline and could contain DNA from one or more accuser. They don’t even bother to collect his underwear, the underwear of a man they suspect of being a serial rapist. The detectives later brush off that idea because Holtzclaw told them that the underwear he wore during his previous shift were in the washer, but they also have been very clear that they think Holtzclaw is a liar.  So, why choose to believe him now, and why choose to believe him in regard to such a critical piece of evidence?  Detectives never even seek a search warrant to retrieve his underwear or uniform or other items from his apartment.  In fact, even though law enforcement routinely performs search warrants, these detectives never go to his home, never search his computer, and literally gave him his cell phone back after finding that he left it in his patrol car prior to the interrogation.  Holtzclaw was being completely cooperative and expressed a desire to do anything to get the investigation over with.  This was a perfect time to get him to sign a consent to search form for his home, his computer, and his cell phone.  But these seasoned detectives did none of that.  After being left alone in the interrogation room for one last time, two uniformed officers enter the room and let Daniel know what will happen next and offer to give him a ride home.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Unidentified Officer #1:Hey, Dan.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Hey, man.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Boy, it’s hot in here.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah, it is.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Hey, uh, until this investigation gets all completed, what’s going on, we’re gonna put you on Administrative Leave with Pay, okay?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Just part of procedures.  You know?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: [laughing]

 

Unidentified Officer #1:They gotta do this until it gets all taken care of, okay?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Yeah.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:So, what I’m gonna do.  I’m gonna give you this to sign that you’re receiving it.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:And I’m gonna give you a copy to take home.  I want you to read it very carefully when you get home.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: I will.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Cause there’s some detail stuff that people forget to read.  You know?  Such as, you gotta check in with me every Tuesday morning before nine o’clock.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Call me at the station and just make sure I know who you are and where you’re at.

 

Unidentified Officer #2:And he’s gonna take these things home?

 

Unidentified Officer #1:Yes.  He can take those home wit—you can take those home, that, those items with you, you can take.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:All right?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Okay.

 

Unidentified Officer #2:Okay, thanks Sergeant.

 

Unidentified Officer #1:I will probably come bring…

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

42:03

Host:And like that, it’s over.  Daniel Holtzclaw will never again wear the badge and gun of an Oklahoma City Police Officer.  But he’s not under arrest and he’s not yet charged with any crimes.  In next week’s episode, we will wrap up the Jannie Ligons’ allegations with the results of the forensic testing, analysis of the surveillance video, a late night call from Ligons to a relative who works for the Oklahoma City Police Department, and Ligons’ decision to go public in her first TV interview only five days after her alleged sexual assault. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to subscribe and give us a five star review.  If you would like to know more and see many of the files used to compile this episode, please visit this season’s homepage at holtzclawtrial.com.  You can also follow updates on our Facebook page at In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw, or on Twitter @HoltzclawTrial.  Bates Investigates - Season One: the Daniel Holtzclaw case is researched, produced, and edited by me, Brian Bates.  This has been a bug stomper production.  

EPISODE 4

Intro:                           This podcast deals with adult subject matter, including depictions of drug addiction, prostitution, sexual assault and rape. Parental Guidance is suggested.

 

Newscaster:                Officer Daniel Holtzclaw, with the police department for three years, is accused of raping and sexually assaulting women he pulled over while on the job.

 

Jannie Ligons:             He said, “Come on, come on. Just a minute.” I said, “Sir I can't do this. You are going to shoot?”

 

Det. Davis:                  Your description of him?

 

Sherry Ellis:                He's black.

 

Det. Davis:                  Okay, he's a black male.

                                    What did your daughter tell you?

 

Amanda Gates:           She said, “I met this really hot cop.”

 

Shardayreon Hill:        So this is good evidence?

 

Det. Gregory:              Well, you tell me.

 

Newscaster:                The following episode contains investigative events which occurred on June 18thand June 23rd2014.

 

Brian:                          Welcome back to season one of Bates investigates where we are taking an in depth serialized look into the case of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw. In the last two episodes we listened to and summarized the interrogation of Daniel Holtzclaw by OCPD sex crimes detectives Kim Davis and Rocky Gregory. You will recall that then Oklahoma City patrol officer Daniel Holtzclaw, who was half white and half Japanese, was accused of sexually assaulting Jannie Ligons, a 57 year old black female. He had admittedly pulled over while off the clock. We ended last time, with officer Holtzclaw being relieved of his police badge, gun and even his uniform pants. Pants that would soon take center stage and be the catalyst to a very controversial rounding up of Holtzclaw accusers. During Holtzclaw two hour interrogation, we heard him deny any criminal activity expressed a desire to cooperate in any way and repeatedly asked detectives to ‘get it done’ a reference to conducting DNA testing, analysing the retrieve surveillance video and even the use of a polygraph.

 

Daniel:                         I've never been in trouble like this before. Never got accused of anything like this or nothing.

                                    I've heard of officers going through this and, and whatnot and that's something I don't want my rep to be, you know about, I'm a good officer. I don't -- that's not me. It's not me.

 

Det. Davis:                  On the video are we going to see her boobies?

 

Daniel:                         You shouldn't see her boobs. I didn't see her boobs.

 

Det. Davis:                  Okay. Are we going to see her pull her pants down?

 

Daniel:                         I didn't see her pull her pants down.

 

Det. Davis:                  Okay. Are we going to see your penis out?

 

Daniel:                         No.

 

Det. Davis:                  Are we going to see your penis go in her mouth?

 

Daniel:                         No.

 

Det. Davis:                  Are we going to get any DNA to that?

 

Daniel:                         No.

 

Det. Davis:                  You'd be willing to take a polygraph on it?

 

Daniel:                         Yeah.

 

Det. Davis:                  Okay. We're going to call tomorrow. We can't get a hold of a polygrapher today.

 

Daniel:                         Okay.

 

Daniel:                         I'm getting attacked now. I'm just feeling - I'm like oh my God Bless. I want to do it today. I want a DNA; I want to get it done.

 

Det. Gregory:              Look, we're going to put it to the front of the line, okay?

 

Daniel:                         Get it done.

 

Host:                           Admittedly, you could describe Holtzclaw’s demeanour during his interrogation many different ways; subdued, patient, calm, cooperative, certainly professional. Far more professional than these quotes from the season detectives conducting the interrogation.

 

Det. Gregory:              I masturbate right and left. So, does that work?

 

Det. Davis:                  I think I do that left handed.

 

Det. Gregory:              Very good.

 

Det. Davis:                  Well, I’m dominate.

 

Det. Gregory:              You are?

 

Det. Davis:                  Yes I am.

                                    Just a plain old penis?

 

Daniel:                         Just a plain old penis.

 

Det. Gregory:              Plain old fourteen-incher.

 

Host:                           With all that in mind, here is how detective Davis described Holtzclaw who a reporter with the Oklahoma newspaper based on that same interrogation we all listened to.

 

Det. Davis:                  We talked to him for over two hours yet he was the most Stoic, non, he was like interviewing a robot. It was very odd. I've never interviewed anybody like that. Usually, if I'm going to look at you and say, you put your penis in somebody's mouth, you’d be like, “What?!” your voice would change or you know and be nothing. His voice never changed no voice inflection. He never raised his eyebrows. He was like interviewing a robot. He's a sociopath.

                                    

                                    [00:05:08]

 

Host:                           I would argue that no rational person who isn't operating from the perspective of self-serving confirmation bias would ever describe Holtzclaw’s attitude during his interrogation as robotic, or is that of a sociopath? Regardless, as soon as Holtzclaw is driven home, he tries to explain the situation to his girlfriend Carrie, and then also places a couple of telephone calls. First, to the Fraternal Order of Police or FOP, they immediately assign an attorney to represent him. Holtzclaw next place is a call to the one man he respects above all others, but also who he fears he may have let down the most, his father. As we mentioned in the last episode, Eric Holtzclaw is a career law enforcement officer and currently works as a lieutenant with another police department in Oklahoma. Here are some brief comments from Eric Holtzclaw regarding that telephone call.

 

Eric Holtzclaw:           I remember when this event first happened when he first called me I was at work and he called me and says, “Hey, they just called me in about a complaint that they're taking,” and I said, “Well just tell them the truth.” I mean, he had been questioned on other complaints of like I said, the use of force once before and it's just routine, he tells the truth and they go on and they investigated, it would be unfounded. So that didn't alarm me initially. What alarmed me later on was to find out that they weren't doing administrative investigation. They read him his rights right away. They didn't use the FOP or do any kind of administrative investigation or offer that I could see from the interview offered to me any kind of representation from the FOP or any of those things when I saw the video. But he was up front honest because he just thought it was a routine interview. I think he was naive to the fact that they were looking into something much more serious than what he thought he was being called in for.

 

Host:                           Did he contact you the day that he was interviewed by the detective?

 

Eric Holtzclaw:           Yeah, it was after I think he called me.

 

Host:                           At that time, were you 100% convinced that Daniel was innocent?

 

Eric Holtzclaw:           Well, I knew he hadn't done anything at the initial thing. We weren't even sure what this was about. I think he's mentioned something it was about a traffic stop or what occurred on a traffic stop. And then later on, he told me that, “They are accusing me of this, some sort of sexual assault.” And I knew that wasn't true. Especially when he said it was done. You know, the way he started describing, I'm thinking, “You got to be kidding me. It's the middle of a street in his uniform and a traffic stop.” And he's going to do the sexual assault and the ladies going to go on our way. I said, “This is just another bogus kind of type of report.” He told me what little bit about what it was going on. And I asked him, I said, you know what happened in this case, and he described and he was telling me this on his way home, it was not a big deal. He saw this he said, I better do something because this person just swerved in my lane and I'm going to stop and make sure this person is all right to go home. I didn't you know, he didn't want a drunk driver to be out there in the car and kill somebody. So he told me about what was going on with it and so I wasn't really alarmed about that until more of these things that they leaked to the media and they came out and told later on when they made the arrest.

 

Host:                           Wow, Holtzclaw is now forced to simply sit back and wait. Detectives Davis and Gregory are on a mission. The next morning when the detectives arrived to work, they are greeted by a small mountain of documents sitting on their desk that has already been collected on Holtzclaw. These documents cover every moment of Holtzclaw’s last three years as an Oklahoma City police officer. Detectives Davis and Gregory while sifting through all of these documents begin to take note. Holtzclaw was hired by the department in September of 2011 and completed the OC PD field training officer program in August of 2012. That same month, he was assigned to the second shift within Spring Lake patrol division.

 

                                    [00:10:00]

                                    In April of 2013, Holtzclaw successfully completed his probationary period. Barely a month later, Holtzclaw made the news when he, along with some other officers were involved in an on duty use of force incident resulting in the death of a 38 year old male. The medical examiner ruled the death an accident attributed to excited syndrome due to methamphetamine toxicity. Holtzclaw was placed on administrative leave for one day. Holtzclaw file also shows he has self-reported at least 19 use of force incidents. His personnel file also reflects one incident that he neglected to report that resulted in a letter being placed in his personnel file. That letter reads in part, ‘Officer Holtzclaw is an enthusiastic police officer. He was very receptive to the verbal counselling. Signed Lieutenant Bennett, Spring Lake division second shift.’ In May of 2013, he received a coveted temporary gang unit assignment. In September, he made the news again after a suspect that the Liberty station apartment complex in northeast Oklahoma City resisted arrest, wrestled with him and allegedly tried to take his service revolver. Remember that name, Liberty station apartment. A few days before Christmas 2013 Holtzclaw was one of just a handful of officers to be issued one of the few brand new all black Ford Police Interceptor take home patrol cars. Yet another sign Holtzclaw was seen as a standout police officer. He was involved in two incidents which caused damage to his patrol car. The first was in March of 2013 and was a result of debris in the roadway. The second was in October and involved Holtzclaw’s patrol vehicle striking a bicyclist that pulled out in front of him. Both incidents ruled non preventable. According to Holtzclaw’s Police Department application, his nickname growing up was ‘the claw’ an abbreviated version of his last name, Holtzclaw’s identifying marks are listed as two tattoos. The first on his upper left shoulder. It's a Bible verse, Philippians 4:13. ‘I can do all things through Christ, who gives me strength.’ The other tattoo, located on his upper right shoulder, is the Japanese symbol for work hard.

                                    Also in Holtzclaw’s personnel file is a copy of his birth certificate. The youngest of three and the only son was born at the US Naval Hospital in Guam on December 10th1986. Holtzclaw lists his immediate family members as his father Eric, his mother Kumiko, and his sisters Julie and Jenny. Daniel has always been close to his parents and siblings, but he has no idea how much he will have to rely on them and to the extent they will show their love for him in the coming years. Holtzclaw criminal history is listed as two self-disclosed incidents when he was only seven years old. The first when he stole a wallet from the BeX or bass exchange store, and another incident when he stole candy from a convenience store. Holtzclaw graduated from high school in Enid, Oklahoma, he was the captain of his football team. Holtzclaw next attended college at Eastern Michigan University on a division one a football scholarship. While there he played a starting middle line-backer in every game of his four years at college. Holtzclaw was a freshman all American and top five in the nation and interceptions and held the NCAA record for tackles per season. Holtzclaw excelled at leadership and once again was captain of his football team. He graduated in 2010 with a Bachelor's of Science in criminal justice. After graduation, hold school tried out for the NFL. That dream was not to be. Holtzclaw next pursued his second passion to become a police officer and follow in both his father's and mother's footsteps. Holtzclaw wrote in his application to the Oklahoma City Police Department, ‘I think being an Oklahoma City police officer would be a challenge with numerous opportunities to specialize, as it is a very large department. I have always thought public service was very important to giving back to the community and protecting it. I have always lived ethically and tried to be a positive role model to others. I have the highest regard and respect for police officers and aspire to fill that role and make a career in this field. Signed; Daniel Holtzclaw.’ Detective Davis directs a colleague to telephone Eastern Michigan University and find out if they have ever had any complaints against Holtzclaw for inappropriate behaviour. They have not. Detectives Davis and Gregory are not the only one's still actively following up on Ligons’s complaint from the day before.

 

[00:15:00]

 

                                    Lieutenant Muzny places the telephone call to Alan Salmon with the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigations. Muzny, brief Salmon on the complaint and tells him there is only one witness security camera number 21 from the 30 life insurance at Northeast 50 at Lincoln Boulevard. Muzny asked him to place a priority on trying to analyse the footage and clean it up. Detective Davis is also on the phone. She has been making arrangements with a member of the Secret Service to administer a polygraph test to Holtzclaw for 1:00 p.m. that very afternoon. Detective Davis next contacts Holtzclaw to let him know about the polygraph test she has just secured. Holtzclaw says he's now represented by FOP attorney Susan Knight and that Davis will have to have any further communications through her. Detective Davis knows that's going to be a problem. She knows that most criminal defence attorneys will not cooperate with the use of a polygraph test against their client. And she's right. When she gets Susan Knight on the phone, she tells detective Davis that she will not allow Holtzclaw to be tested. Here's an interesting side note. Susan Knight is married to Oklahoma City Police Master Sergeant Gary Knight. Gary Knight served as a police department's Public Information Officer during this time. Across town, OCPD crime scene technicians have returned to Holtzclaw’s patrol car now secured in the police department's evidence barn. They have been instructed to flourish the patrol car with an alternate life source to search for stains to be tested for evidence of sexual assault. Late that same afternoon, Lieutenant Muzny returns to the OSBI office to retrieve the enhanced surveillance footage he provided them. OSBI hasn't been much help in that regard. Their enhancement appears to be limited to simply enlarging the area of the footage where Holtzclaw on Ligons’s vehicle are stopped. The timestamp on the grainy black and white video starts at 2:02 a.m. because the security camera had to be manually rebooted at 2 a.m. we don't know exactly what time Holtzclaw initiated the traffic stop. While the video at first glance appears to be useless, there are clues within the washed out and blanked in images on the screen. At 2:02 and eight seconds there appears to be two figure standing between Holtzclaw patrol car and Ligons vehicle. Within seconds the two figures walk eastbound, we can assume that his officer Holtzclaw directing Ligons to the rear passenger side of his patrol car. At 2:04 and 20 seconds, it appears Holtzclaw walks from his patrol car to Ligons car and searches it for approximately one and a half minutes. During this time, a small vehicle, possibly a motorcycle is seen driving southbound on Beverly and then turning eastbound on northeast 50th. At 2:05 and 51 seconds, Holtzclaw returns to Ligons, after presumably searching her vehicle. At 2:08 a.m. you see a vehicle drive on northeast 50theast to west. At 2:08 and 39 seconds, if you look closely, it appears you can see Holtzclaw using his flashlight. At 2:10 and 48 seconds another vehicle passes by. This vehicle is traveling from the west eastbound on northeast 50th and then turns and takes Beverly northbound. This appears to be the gold SUV Ligons would later recall seeing driving by. At 2:13 and 43 seconds a fourth and final vehicle is seen traveling past the traffic stop from east to west. At 2:15 a.m. Ligons appears to walk back to her vehicle. 26 seconds later Holtzclaw is seen backing up his patrol car and Ligons pulls her car forward slowly. 40 seconds after Ligons was seen walking towards her car, Holtzclaw has made a U turn and is driving eastbound on northeast 50th towards Lincoln Boulevard with Ligons, almost directly behind him. Taking out the time for searching Ligons vehicle, Holtzclaw has spent approximately 11 minutes with Ligons. According to the prosecution, in that 11 minutes, Holtzclaw had time to ask Ligons if she had been drinking or doing drugs, inquire as to what was in her cup and her console, asked for her license and insurance, inquire as to why she had no license, ask her what she was doing out that late at night, ask permission to search her vehicle, tell her he had just gotten off work and was tired, comfort her and reassure her she didn't need to be upset and he wasn't going to shoot her and tell her he was going to follow her to make sure she was really headed home and driving safely.

 

[00:20:00]

 

All of which Ligons had to reply to in return. And somewhere in there, he managed to fit in, pulling out his erect penis over his compression shorts with no fly under his t-shirt and bulletproof vest and around his uniform shirt that was held in place by shirt stays and get oral sex while coaxing her to just hurry up all of that folks within 11 minutes or less. Like all of the other discovery evidence, I have posted a copy of the OSBI enhanced surveillance video on this episode's homepage at holtzclawtrial.com. Lieutenant Muzny next request copies of the names of everyone Holtzclaw ran on his mobile data computer MDC for short for the past three months. Muzny also request any reports written any Verona activity and all citation information for the past six months. Verona is the name given to the database officers can access that contains crime reports. This information is the beginning of a controversial list and potential victim profile. The following day Friday, June 20 2014, Crime Scene technicians returned to Holtzclaw patrol vehicle for a third time. They are met by detective Gregory. Gregory is specifically looking for FI cards that may be in Holtzclaw vehicle. FI or field interview cards are handwritten notes created by officers during informal citizen contacts during patrol. This information is turned in and utilized by other officers as intelligence on things like gang activity, suspect information etcetera. On Monday, June 23rd, Lieutenant Muzny receives a huge stack of paperwork. It's the reports he had requested regarding Holtzclaw encounters late last week. After briefly reviewing the documents, he makes an additional request. He now wants to see any activity we're Holtzclaw called into unit 800 for the past three months. Unit 800 is the crime information unit, also referred to as CIU. That is the database officers’ access to do warrant checks, driver's license checks, stolen property inquiries, vehicle checks, missing persons etcetera. Also on this day, a police report is written and received by detectives from another Spring Lake officer, Anthony Carter. You will recall on episode one that there is a brief mentioned by detective Davis in her report that Ligons mentioned that after they arrived at the Spring Lake Station and couldn't find anyone that their intention was to drive home and call a cousin of theirs who also worked as a police officer, Anthony Carter. However, while in route, they apparently flag down patrol officers on North Lincoln Boulevard. 

 

It should be noted at trial Marisa Ligons actually claimed that they were headed to the Hefner police station when they left Spring Lake and not headed home as Janie Ligons indicated. The report by Anthony Carter reads a little differently than detective Davis's report. According to his report, he received a telephone call from his mother, Francis Carter. She told Anthony that their cousin Janie had been sexually assaulted by Spring Lake officer and that Janie and her daughter were at the Spring Lake police department but the doors were locked and they couldn't find anyone. Anthony Carter says in his report that he instructed his mother to tell Ligons to simply call 911 and then an officer would be dispatched to them to take a report. Carter says he then went back to bed, but did check it line up the next day to ensure that a report had been made. Another interesting notation and officer Carter's report is the fact he mentioned that Ligons was told by investigators that she would be shown a photo line-up. However, as I've already pointed out, Detective Davis obstructs the use of a photo line-up, and Ligons is never given that opportunity. You can see a copy of Officer Carter's report on this episode's homepage at holtzclawtrial.com. Additionally, reports from the officers whom Ligons contacted on North Lincoln Boulevard all indicate that Ligons flagged them down while in route to Spring Lake Station and not while returning from it. Lastly, Detective Davis's report also details that Marissa Ligons, Janie's adult daughter repeatedly called the Spring Lake Station as they were driving towards it and got no answer. Marissa also claimed that she called the Hefner station but they told her they couldn't help. At trial, no evidence could be provided to show that those calls were ever actually made. Detectives Davis, Gregory and everyone working overtime to investigate Ligons’s claims of sexual assault are caught a bit off guard when the following exclusive interview leads the nightly news on KW TV in Oklahoma City. 

 

[00:25:00]

 

Newscaster:                We begin tonight with some shocking allegations against an Oklahoma City police officer. 

 

Kelly:                          A woman says she was pulled over, frisked and forced to perform oral sex during a traffic stop. She talked exclusively with News-nine prime tracker Adriana Eva Shimsky, who joins us for the story now live, Adriana.

 

Adriana:                      Kelly, Oklahoma city police confirmed they are investigating this claim and that an officer has been placed on administrative leave but they are not releasing his name at this time. But this woman tells me she's just glad he's off the streets.

 

Woman:                       He just needs to be stopped. I don't want to go with nobody. That's torture. 

 

Adriana:                      This woman agreed to talk with me as long as we protected her identity. She said she was driving home from a friend's house last Thursday around 2 a.m. when she was pulled over.

 

Woman:                       And as I passed within the Lincolns life change, that’s when he put his lights on. I'll say, ‘What did I do?’

 

Adriana:                      The 57 year old grandmother of 12 says she pulled over to the nearest side street right by these buildings. She says that officer told her to get out of her car and then frisked her and there were security cameras all around.

 

Woman:                       So he patted me down, he didn't find anything. 

 

Adriana:                      She tells me the officer then told her to undress.

 

Woman:                       So I raised up my blouse, he’s going to raising my bra. I did all that, he took his flashlight and he shined it on my chest. 

 

Adriana:                      She says he then forced her to perform oral sex while she was sitting in his squad car.

 

Woman:                       You aren’t supposed to do this. ‘I think you are supposed to do this to be served.

 

Adriana:                      This grandmother says a car even passed them during the incident.

 

Woman:                       He say, ‘Hurry up because I took off a duty, I don't have all night.’ 

 

Adriana:                      She says the entire time she feared for her life.

 

Woman:                       I say, ‘Sir no, I can’t do this.’ He said, ‘Come on. Come on. Just a minute.’ I say, ‘Sir, I can't do this. You're going to shoot me. You’re going to shoot me.’ 

 

Adriana:                      She says the officer finally let her go but says he followed her to her daughter's house and then took off. That's when she called police.

 

Woman:                       If they’re going to shoot me when I hit my hand and that’s definitely going through my mind. I said he's not going to do this to me and let me go and then he hits my tail. I said he's not, in my mind he was going to kill me.

 

Adriana:                      Now Oklahoma City Police say they are taking this allegation very seriously and a criminal investigation is underway. Reporting live from police headquarters Adriana Eva Shimsky, news nine. 

 

Kelly:                          All right Adriana, the woman says she came forward because she fears the officer may have done this to other women before. And she's encouraging them to come forward and file a report as well.

 

Host:                           Now you obviously cannot see the television news story I just played. You're only getting the audio naturally. But I think it's important to point out at this point, Janie Ligons is silhouetted in that news story, so you cannot see her and her name was not said or displayed. Additionally, Holtzclaw was not identified in the story, either by name, photo or description. The investigative reporter in that story, Adriana Eva Shimsky, is someone I've worked with several times during her career as an Oklahoma City journalist. While she no longer works in Oklahoma, I gave her a phone call because I wanted to know the origin of the Ligons interview. Did Ligons shop the story around herself? Did Adriana get a tip? How exactly did this story come about?

 

Adriana:                      Well, it all came to us with a phone call to a [inaudible 00:28:30]. We got a call from a family member of Jannie Ligons who said we needed to look into the situation but I got the call from my news station. ‘Hey, this person wants to talk with you about this situation, why don't you give them a call back.’ So I at least did my due diligence as well. ‘I'll at least call them and see what they have to say about this situation.’ And when I did call, the caller was credible. The caller comes from a law enforcement background and I vetted the caller and was like, ‘Look, this happened to my family member.’ I point blank asked him, ‘Do you believe her?’ And he said, ‘Yes, I do.’ And I go, ‘Was there a police report made?’ He goes, ‘From what I understand, yes, there was.’ And I'm like, ‘Okay, well, that's something to work with.’ And then I was at the police station when I received this call and started making these calls. And I went straight to our police contact and said, ‘I'm getting information that you may be investigating one of your own for possible sexual misconduct during a traffic stop. Can you at least verify this is true?’ So while they are checking up on my question, I follow up with a call too, which turns out to be Jannie Ligons and talk with her and then from there, once I got off the phone and confirmed, I was going to talk to her that afternoon, I went back to police and said, ‘Can you confirm you guys are investigating.’ And they said, ‘Yes, there is an investigation taking place. And that's all I knew.’ And from there, the story blew up.

 

[00:30:00]

 

Host:                           I have two concerns regarding this news story. One; what was Ligons true motivation in coming forward without first checking with detectives to make certain she wasn't jeopardizing their case. She had to have known the detectives were taking her allegations extremely seriously. This brings up my second concern. Detectives have not yet begun to contact individuals they feel may have been assaulted by officer Holtzclaw, yet, the public has now been put on notice that there is indeed an officer under investigation. They also now have a basic idea of the specific allegations against him. Over the next few days, the evidence from Holtzclaw patrol car is analysed. Despite extensive searching by CSI technicians for the presence of fingerprints or DNA, they could find no evidence to support Ligons’ claims. In addition, the result of Ligons’ SANE test or rape kit has returned. Despite being tested only a couple of hours after she alleges she was forced to perform oral sex upon Holtzclaw, the test reveal no DNA from Holtzclaw, no pre-ejaculate and no signs of sexual contact. Detective Kim Davis, however, is not thudded. In fact, confirmation bias has taken such a hold on her that I'm reminded of this quote she gave the Oklahoma newspaper. 

 

Det. Davis:                  We’ll take our time and will verify everything the girl said or we’ll verify everything he said in the end, and that's the way the chips are going to fall and everything that girl said verified and nothing he said, did.

 

Host:                           Everything the women said verified and nothing he said did. Let's review that. Janie Ligons claims that when she was stopped, Holtzclaw forced her to place the palms of her hands on to his patrol car as they patted her down. Holtzclaw said that didn't happen. An extensive forensic examination turned up no fingerprints nor DNA to backup Ligons’s claim. Jannie Ligons claimed Holtzclaw placed his hands on the roof of his patrol car to block the view of passing motorists. Again, Holtzclaw denies that ever happened. And once again, the forensic examination turns up nothing to support Ligons assertions. Ligons claims she was forced to perform oral sex upon officer Holtzclaw, a claim Holtzclaw adamantly denies, a SANE test or rape kit is performed on Ligons, no DNA, no pre-ejaculate and no other evidence of sexual contact is found. Ligons claims they repeatedly called the Spring Lake and Hefner briefing stations and even spoke with someone at the Hefner station. No evidence supporting those phone calls was ever provided to the defence nor shown at trial. 

 

Ligons claims Holtzclaw just casually and quickly unzipped his pants and exposed his erect penis yet the video evidence showing what all Holtzclaw was wearing makes that scenario highly unlikely. And lastly, the surveillance video clearly leaves no more than an 11 minute window in which Holtzclaw could have all the conversations both parties agree took place and allow him to commit a sexual assault. Again, a series of events that is not backed up with a single thread of evidence and appears to defy the reality of the constraints of time. 

 

Det. Davis:                  And everything the girl said verified and nothing he said did.

 

Host:                           I will continue to play this clip throughout this podcast, and its departure from reality will only continue to be more apparent. That being said detective Davis does get an update from the police department's crime lab. Lab Analyst Elaine Taylor has tested Holtzclaw’s’ uniform pants and there's female DNA. It's on the inside of the fly, and it doesn't match Ligons. With that news detectives Davis and Gregory becomes singularly focused on matching that DNA profile to an individual. And they think to themselves, do we have a serial sexual predator within our ranks and are there more victims out there?

 

This is where I'm going to conclude this week's episode. I also have a programming note. This serialized podcast is not pre-recorded weeks or even months in advance. I'm a one man show with a private investigative agency to run and these episodes are literally recorded week to week. Next week, my wife and I are celebrating our 20th wedding anniversary, so I will be focusing all of my attention on her, but I will return with the new episode on July 31. In that episode, we will discuss the newly discovered DNA on Holtzclaw’s uniform pants and begin to investigate the Terry Morris sexual assault allegations.

 

[00:35:00]

 

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to subscribe and give us a five star review. If you'd like to know more and see many of the files used to compile this episode, please visit this season's homepage at holtzclawtrial.com. You can also follow updates on our Facebook page at in defence of Daniel Holtzclaw or on Twitter @Holtzclawtrial. Bates investigates season one, the Daniel Holtzclaw case is researched, produced and edited by me Brian Bates. This has been a Bug stomper production.

Bates Investigates

Episode 5 ׀Daniel Holtzclaw: Terri Morris Allegations

 

[OPENING MUSIC]

 

Disclaimer: This podcast deals with adult subject matter, including depictions of drug addiction, prostitution, sexual assault, and rape.  Parental guidance is suggested.

 

00:37[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE]

 

Newscaster: Officer Daniel Holtzclaw, with the Police Department for three years, is accused of raping and sexually assaulting women he pulled over while on the job.

 

Jannie Ligons: He said, ‘Come on, come on, just a minute, just a minute’.  I say, ‘Sir, I can’t do this’.  I say, ‘you gonna shoot...’

 

Det. Kim Davis: Tell me your description of him.

 

Sherri Ellis: He’s black.

 

Det. Kim Davis: He’s b—okay, he’s a black male.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What did your daughter tell you?

 

Amanda Gates: She said, ‘I met this really hot cop’.

 

Shardayreon Hill: So, this is good evidence?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Well, you tell me.

 

[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE ENDS]

 

Timestamp: The following episode contains investigative events which occurred between May 24thand June 24, 2014.

 

01:24

Host:Welcome back to Bates Investigates, the podcast, Season One - The State of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw.  When I left off in episode four, twenty-seven year old Oklahoma City Patrol Officer, Daniel Holtzclaw, had been accused of sexually assaulting a fifty-seven year old grandmother named Jannie Ligons, during an off-the-clock traffic stop.  Only hours later, Holtzclaw was interrogated by sex crimes detectives Kim Davis and Rocky Gregory as their boss, Lieutenant Tim Muzny, watched from another room. Subsequently, Holtzclaw was placed on administrative leave and sent home.  A forensic analysis of Holtzclaw's patrol car, surveillance video, and a SANE exam of his accuser, all came back with no evidence supporting the allegations.  Regardless, both the detectives were of the opinion they not only had their man, but that he must be a serial offender.  That opinion was only magnified when only days later OCPD Crime Lab Analyst Elaine Taylor contacted the detectives to tell them that she had found female DNA on the fly of Holtzclaw's uniform pants and it wasn't from accuser Ligons.  Only five days after her alleged sexual assault, Ligons decides to make her claims public by doing an exclusive and anonymous interview with a local TV news station.  After Daniel Holtzclaw was relieved of duty and sent home to await his fate, Detective Rocky Gregory began to fill in Detective Davis on the Terri Morris Allegations.  You'll recall Detective Gregory questioned Holtzclaw about the contact he may have had with Morris and how she was, in Detective Gregory's opinion, making the same allegations as Ligons.  The case into Terry Morris’ allegations began in an early morning 911 call on May 24, 2014.  The call was placed by sixty-one year old Oklahoma City resident, Christopher Shelton, a recent and former boyfriend of forty-three year old accuser, Terri Morris.

 

3:28[RECORDING BEGINS]

Terri Morris: [inaudible][yelling] Ain’t gonna do that.

 

911 Operator:Oklahoma City 911, what’s your emergency?

 

Terri Morris: [yelling] That happened to me [inaudible].

 

911 Operator:Hello?

 

Christopher Shelton:Hello?

 

Terri Morris: [inaudible][yelling] They talking about some obeyance and gotdamn [inaudible].

 

911 Operator:Hello?

 

Terri Morris: [sobbing] [shuffling noises] I feel like a mother fucker done ripped my heart out and tried to put it back inside.  I feel like, uh, some, I feel like, uh…

 

Christopher Shelton:Hello?

 

Terri Morris: [inaudible][sobbing]

 

911 Operator:Can you hear me?

 

Christopher Shelton:Yes, sir.

 

911 Operator:Where are you?

 

Christopher Shelton:I’m on Twenty Third and Kelley.

 

Terri Morris: [yelling in background]

 

911 Operator:Okay, are you at a house or at the intersection?

 

Christopher Shelton:I’m at the Valero on Twenty Third and Kelley.

 

Terri Morris: [yelling in background]

 

911 Operator:What—what’s going on there, sir?

 

Christopher Shelton:Uh, I seen a friend of mine, she was walking down Kelley, so I…

 

Terri Morris: [inaudible] I ain’t your friend! I was your girlfriend!

 

Christopher Shelton:… Saw her in the street so I gave her a ride.

 

911 Operator:Okay.

 

Christopher Shelton:I was gonna take her home to her grandmomma’s house, but she wouldn’t get out, so she told me to take her on Twenty Third.

 

Terri Morris: [yelling in background]

 

Christopher Shelton:Now, I been trying to get her out for the last thirty minutes and now she’s saying…

 

Terri Morris: [yelling in background]

 

911 Operator:Okay, are you in the, uh, in the Valero?

 

Terri Morris: [yelling in background]

 

Christopher Shelton:Pardon?

 

911 Operator:You in the—at, at the Valero, is that right?

 

Christopher Shelton:Yes, sir.

 

911 Operator:What kind of car you in, sir?

 

Terri Morris: [yelling in background]

 

Christopher Shelton:I’m in a 1992 Acura Legend.

 

911 Operator:What color?

 

Christopher Shelton:Uh, it is, uh, tan.  [banging noises]  She’s tearing the inside of my car up.  She’s drunk.

 

Terri Morris: [yelling in background]

 

911 Operator:Uh, what’s your name sir?

 

Christopher Shelton:My name’s Christopher Shelton.

 

Terri Morris:  Shelton.  Christopher Shelton.  Christopher Shelton.

 

911 Operator:What’s her—

 

Christopher Shelton:Man, she’s yanking stuff out of my car.

 

Terri Morris: [yelling in background]

 

911 Operator:What’s, uh, what’s her name, sir?

 

Terri Morris: [yelling in background]

 

Christopher Shelton:Her name’s Terri Lynn Morris.

 

911 Operator:Is she white, black, Hispanic or Indian?

 

Christopher Shelton:She’s black.  She’s—

 

911 Operator:How old is she?

 

Christopher Shelton:She’s tearing my car up.

 

911 Operator:I understand.

 

Christopher Shelton:She’s forty-three.

 

Terri Morris: You hurt me!

 

911 Operator:Okay.  She still in the car?

 

Christopher Shelton:Well, she finally got out now. Now she, now she throwing stuff at me.

 

Terri Morris: [inaudible] police [sobbing] [Inaudible screaming]

 

Christopher Shelton:I, I told you I was, Terri Lynn, but you wasn’t get out.

 

Terri Morris: [Inaudible screaming]

 

Christopher Shelton:She’s hitting on me and maybe crying.

 

Terri Morris: [Inaudible screaming]

 

911 Operator:Is she drunk or on drugs?

 

Christopher Shelton:Inaudible

 

Terri Morris: [Inaudible screaming] on my purse.

 

911 Operator:Christopher, is she on—drunk or on drugs?

 

Terri Morris: [Inaudible screaming]

 

Christopher Shelton:Yeah, something wrong with her. I just want somebody to come get her. I don’t hit women or anything.

 

911 Operator:What color shirt and pants she wearing?

 

Christopher Shelton:She got a black dress on.

 

911 Operator:Look like [inaudible].

 

Christopher Shelton:I—I was trying to help her, but, damn.

 

Terri Morris: You was trying to help me. [Inaudible screaming]

 

Christopher Shelton:Now she’s throwing my damn CD’s out.

 

Terri Morris: [Inaudible screaming]

 

911 Operator:Yes, sir.  Look like she—or does she have any weapons?

 

Christopher Shelton:Nah, she’s just tearing my dern car up.

 

Terri Morris: Yeah. [inaudible]

 

911 Operator:The officer’s already driving to you.

 

Terri Morris: [Inaudible screaming]

 

Christopher Shelton:Yeah.

 

911 Operator:Look like she need an ambulance?

 

Christopher Shelton:She just tore my, my stereo apart.

 

Terri Morris: How you trying to help me?

 

Christopher Shelton:They’re, they’re on their way here, Terri.

 

Terri Morris: I don’t care.  It’s them—they the one that raped me.

 

Christopher Shelton:You, you done tore my damn…

 

Terri Morris: They the one that raped me.  So you done called the people, the same motherfuckers that raped me.  I don’t know. I don’t even know.  The police [inaudible].

 

Christopher Shelton:Could you hurry up here, sir?

 

6:23

911 Operator:Sir, I’m not driving.  The officer’s driving.

 

Terri Morris: Yeah, cause when they do come [inaudible] Let me describe the police that raped me the other night.

 

911 Operator:Yeah, you should see them very close. Uh, very soon, sir.

 

Christopher Shelton:Uh, she just tore my radio out.

 

Terri Morris: You done called, yeah, you talking about a friend [inaudible]

 

911 Operator:Let me know when you see the officer.

 

Christopher Shelton:Oh, yeah, she’s trying.  I’m shutting the door.  She’s up here tearing my stuff up.  I mean [laugh].

 

Terri Morris: [Inaudible screaming]

 

911 Operator:Do you see the officer?

 

Christopher Shelton:Here he is. 

 

Terri Morris: You said you loved me! [inaudible]

 

Christopher Shelton:Do I need to stay on the phone?

 

911 Operator:Uh, did the officer find you?

 

Christopher Shelton:Yeah, here they are.

 

911 Operator:All right.  Talk to them, okay?

 

Christopher Shelton:Yeah.

 

911 Operator:All right.

 

Christopher Shelton:All right, thank you.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host:That 911 call is exclusive to this podcast.  I obtained it through a freedom of information request.   Amazingly, it was not a part of the discovery in this case and was never presented at trial.  And, in all fairness, I think that was an oversight and a mistake by the prosecution.  Had it been played, it would have possibly been damaging to Daniel's defense.  Why?  About two minutes and fifty seconds into the call, you heard Terri Morris make the following, and seemingly unprovoked, statement: "You just called the people ... the same motherfuckers that raped me."  She goes on to indicate she was raped by a police officer.  If true, this is the only proof in this case of an accuser, beyond Ligons, to allege a sexual assault without first being prompted to do so and prior to any allegations being made public.  Remember, this was May 24, 2014, and Ligons didn’t get pulled over until June 18th of that same year.  Around 3 a.m. Oklahoma City Police Officer, Dan Williams, and his recruit rookie partner, Officer Jonathan Thomas, were dispatched to the Valero gas station, located at the corner of Northeast Twenty Third and Kelley in Northeast Oklahoma City.  When they arrived they found Terri Morris disheveled and walking aimlessly in the parking lot near Chris Shelton's vehicle.  At the time, Oklahoma City patrol officers did not have body cams, nor dash cams, so the following comes directly from their written reports.  According to Officer Thomas' report, "On 5/24/2014 at approximately 0300 hours I responded to Northeast Twenty Third and Kelley Avenue in reference to a domestic call.  Upon my arrival I made contact with victim Morris and involved party Shelton.  Shelton stated that Morris called him upset and asked him to pick her up.  Morris was acting very hyper and was unable to stand still.  She was crying and stated she had been raped."

 

9:10

Because of Morris' demeanor, rookie officer Thomas asked her if she had done any drugs recently.  She replied that she had smoked some crack just a few hours ago. According to trial testimony, Morris and Shelton were separated and questioned individually. When Thomas asked Morris who raped her, she stated it was a police officer.  She claimed the rape occurred within the last couple of days and gave the specific dates May 20th or 21st.  Morris said she was in downtown Oklahoma City walking to the City Rescue Mission from a drug rehabilitation facility in the immediate area when the officer stopped her and placed her in the backseat of his patrol car.  She described the officer as about forty years old, muscular, clean shaven with dark skin and black hair.  She said the officer ran her for warrants and had her step out of the patrol car and told her to unzip her pants.  Morris claims that when she questioned the officer as to why, the officer said he could take her to jail, but would let her go if she "sucked his dick."  Morris said that the officer never touched her vagina and never tried to have vaginal intercourse.  She said the officer then unzipped his pants and exposed his erect penis.  She said she placed his penis in her mouth for a short period of time and that then he removed his penis and put it back in his pants.  Morris said the officer did not ejaculate and when the sexual assault was over, he had her get back into his patrol car and told her he was going drop her off at the City Rescue Mission.  She told Thomas that the police officer then drove her around for a few minutes before simply stopping in a back alley and telling her to get out.  Morris did not recall exactly where she was picked up or where she was dropped off.  Officer Thomas noted that Morris said the officer in question was wearing an Oklahoma City police uniform and badge and was driving a black and white patrol car.

 

11:10

When asked why she didn’t report the rape before now, Morris indicated it was because she was scared.  Officer Williams then contacted Oklahoma City Police Lieutenant Michelle Holland and asked her to come to his location.  Lieutenant Holland arrived at the Valero around 3:30 a.m.  She asked Morris to recount what had happened.  Lieutenant Holland stated in her report that Morris told the exact same story she had previously told to Officers Thomas and Williams.  In fact, the Lieutenant specifically stated "they [referring to Thomas and Williams] later stated her story did not change about the events when she re-told them to me."  Lieutenant Holland does this in her report to give credibility to Morris and her allegations.  Credibility I would argue you'll soon learn is undeserved and is yet another example of how easily investigators can become bias during an investigation.  Lieutenant Holland then placed a call to the on-call sex crimes detective.  No reason is given, but that detective said they would not be responding to the scene.  Unthwarted, Lieutenant Holland next calls her watch commander, Captain Melvin Davis and advised him of the situation.  Captain Davis advises to get all of Morris and Shelton's information, complete a report, and that it would be submitted to sex crimes for further investigation.  Lieutenant Holland then offered to give Morris a ride to wherever she needed to go.  Morris declined that offer and left on foot.  Shelton reportedly drove away in his vehicle.  Less than two hours later, Lieutenant Holland is dispatched to the Sooner Haven apartment complex near Northeast Thirty Sixth and North Prospect Avenue.  That’s just over a mile and a quarter from the Valero at Northeast Twenty Third and Kelley.  A woman had called 911 claiming that an unknown female was outside her apartment, banging on the door and windows and trying to gain entry.  When Lieutenant Holland arrived, she recognized the woman outside the apartment as Terri Morris.  The female resident who called police initially claimed she didn't know who Morris was.  Lieutenant Holland, however, noted in her report that she later learned that the female was lying and that she did indeed know Morris.  Also noted in the report was that Lieutenant Holland noticed Christopher Shelton's vehicle was parked just outside the apartment also.  We later learn that the apartment belonged to Shelton's new girlfriend and that Morris was upset over that fact and had come to confront them both.  Lieutenant Holland notes that she allowed Morris to walk to another apartment, knock on the door, and that the unidentified male who answered agreed to let Morris come in and sleep in his apartment.

 

13:59

Three days later, on May 27th, the Morris case was assigned to Detective Rocky Gregory for further investigation.  As with Ligons' complaint, less than a month later, Morris' complaint is taken very seriously.  Detective Gregory begins by requesting the names of all officers who have recently pulled up Terri Morris' information on their patrol car Mobile Data Computer or MDC.  On April 11, 2014 at 8:46 a.m., Patrol Officer Jeff Sellers did a records check on Morris. Remember that name, Jeff Sellers.  Detective Gregory then inquired as to what officers had run Morris through the Varuna database.  That check showed that Daniel Holtzclaw had run Morris on May 8th at around 9 p.m.  Both inquires showed that Morris had no warrants at the time and in both instances Officer Sellers and Officer Holtzclaw were not anywhere near the downtown Oklahoma City Rescue Mission when they encountered Morris.  Detective Gregory next sought the AVL or GPS history of Officers Sellers and Holtzclaw on the dates Morris claims she was sexually assaulted, May 20th and 21st.  Sergeant Sellers was listed as light duty and was not working on the streets on those dates.  Officer Holtzclaw was working patrol on both nights.  Detective Gregory noted that on the 21st, Holtzclaw was downtown for a county jail arrest but his patrol car's AVL showed no unexplained stops or irregular behavior.  Detective Gregory then expanded his search to all patrol officers who came within a two block radius of the City Rescue Mission that registered zero speeds on the patrol car’s AVL.  That inquiry turned up nothing.  According to his detailed report, Detective Gregory immediately sets out to locate Morris.  Unfortunately, she is listed as homeless with no mobile telephone number.  Detective Gregory places calls to numerous shelters, non-profits, and service providers that are often frequented by Oklahoma City's homeless population in search of Morris.  Gregory also places calls to all known telephone numbers and associates of Morris.  At 10:45 a.m., Detective Gregory calls Christopher Shelton and left a voice message.  At 10:56, he calls a number listed in the Varuna database for Morris.  That number turns out to be Morris' grandmother who lives in the area on East Hill Street.  She claims she has not seen Morris in about a month.  Detective Gregory leaves his information with her just in case Morris shows up.

 

16:42

11:05, Gregory receives a call back from Christopher Shelton and conducts a telephone interview that lasts about twenty minutes.  According to Detective Gregory's report, Shelton did not know where Morris was or how to get ahold of her.  Shelton stated that he has known Morris for about fourteen years.  He also claims Morris has no mental health issues, but that she did take some pills during a suicidal period in her life.  Shelton also discloses that Morris used alcohol but made no mention of drug use.  Shelton claims that though he's known Morris for a long time, they were only romantically involved for about a month and that was two months ago.  He also said the two of them had lived with each other for a period of time in the past.  Shelton claims that he has a current girlfriend but wouldn't disclose the woman's name.  It was later learned it was the woman who had called 911 regarding Morris trying to break into her apartment.  Shelton's version of events starts to change just a bit in this interview from the one he originally had with Officers Thomas, Williams and Lieutenant Holland.  According to Gregory's report, Shelton didn't receive a phone call from Morris, but instead just happened to be driving down North Kelley Avenue from Northeast Thirty Sixth when he "saw Morris walking and almost it her."  Shelton said Morris was very drunk (though we actually know she’s already admitted that she was high on crack) and that he stopped and told her that he would take her to her grandmother's house on East Hill, just a few blocks away.  Shelton said it was during this ride that Morris mentioned "she was raped by the police."  Shelton also mentioned that Morris was upset with him because he was with another woman and that she had tried to contact him about the rape.  Shelton told Detective Gregory that he told Morris to be quiet and that he didn't want to hear about it because he didn't believe her.  Morris continued to cuss at Shelton and refused to get out of his car when he stopped in front of her grandmother's.  Morris told Shelton to take her to the Valero at Northeast Twenty Third and Kelley Avenue.  However, once they arrived, Morris still refused to exit Shelton's vehicle.  Shortly thereafter, Morris began tearing up the inside of Shelton's vehicle, ripping off the cover to his CD player and physically assaulting him.

 

19:07

That's when Shelton said he called 911.  Shelton said he didn't know many details about Morris' rape allegations, but he did know she said it happened last Tuesday or Wednesday.  Shelton claims that Morris said the officer placed his hands between her legs.  This is a detail that doesn't match the report Morris told the officers who responded to the Valero gas station.  Another detail that is slightly different is that Shelton indicates the rape occurred while Morris was seated in the back off the patrol car.  You'll recall that according to police reports, Morris told the officers at the Valero, she exited the patrol car, was forced to perform oral sex, and then placed back into the patrol car.  Shelton confirmed that after he left the Valero he went to his girlfriend's apartment and that later that same early morning, Morris showed up banging on the doors and windows.  With the interview concluded, Detective Gregory continued his search for Morris after hanging up with Shelton.  At 5 p.m., Detective Gregory drives to the City Rescue Mission because he has been advised they couldn't release any information unless he was there in person.  He is told that the last time Morris was at the facility was on May Twentieth.  Detective Gregory is next joined by Lieutenant Tim Muzny.  The two of them go in person to numerous locations trying to locate Morris.  Those locations include Liberty Station Apartments, where Gregory and Muzny confirmed Morris' street name isTT.  The two also went by local convenience stores and other apartment complexes in the area, none of which proved fruitful.  Over the next few days, Gregory’s steady pace of inquiry continued and is detailed in police reports I've posted to this episode’s home page at holtzclawtrial.com.  On June 2nd, around 11 a.m., Detective Gregory met with rookie officer Jonathan Thomas at police headquarters to go over his contact with Morris at the Valero gas station.  Officer Thomas explained that he had only been on patrol for about a month when he responded to the Chris Shelton 911 call.  Officer Thomas said that when he and his field training officer arrived, the first thing that she told them was that she had been raped by a police officer and that that rape occurred just a few days ago. According to Detective Gregory, Thomas recounts his interactions with Morris and her story, and they match previous reports.  That said, I personally did note one difference.  In this interview, police rookie Thomas now states that Morris was seated inside the patrol car when she was forced to perform oral sex.  In his original report he stated Morris was outside the patrol car.  Detective Gregory apparently missed this detail and did not ask for clarification.  Detective Gregory did however note that, according to officers on the scene, Morris appeared to be consistent in her telling and retelling of her story.  Morris also self-disclosed that she was a prostitute.

 

22:16

When Detective Gregory asked rookie officer Thomas if he believed Morris, his response was, "maybe."  Gregory states in his report he asked rookie officer Thomas to go over the story yet again.  This time, according to Gregory's report, there are significant differences from rookie Thomas' original report and even his first telling of the incident in person to Detective Gregory just a few minutes ago.  Detective Gregory now lists the following details: Morris is allegedly sober on the night of the rape; when she's standing outside of the patrol car, the officer tells her to pull down her pants and Morris replies no; Morris requests a female officer and she is given an ultimatum, "Go to jail or do it this way," indicating performing oral sex; after the rape, Morris was simply dropped off at an unknown location and doesn't recall where she went next.  Morris claimed the first person she reported the rape to was Christopher Shelton.  This would have been just minutes before Shelton called 911 on May 24, 2014.  Officer Thomas specifically recalled asking Morris if the officer wore a condom.  She replied no.  Officer Thomas also asked Morris if her breasts were ever exposed.  Again, no.  But Morris did allegedly tell Thomas that the officer "did feel on her breasts a little bit."  Each telling of the story has Morris standing outside the patrol car when she is made to unzip her pants.  Lastly, Officer Thomas also stated that Morris pointed to his patrol car (a 2010 Crown Vic) and stated the officer who raped her was driving the same vehicle.  All of these details and Morris' answers are going to become critical in this investigation, but somehow they will be totally discounted in Detective Gregory's relentless pursuit of Holtzclaw.

 

24:23

The next day, June 3rd, at around 7 p.m., Detective Gregory is contacted by a confidential informant (or CI) referred to as ‘Cal’.  Cal said he had just spotted Morris at Northeast Twenty Sixth and Urban League Court and that a patrol officer now had her in custody.  Detective Gregory immediately drove to that location and met with Morris.  When he arrived, Patrol Officer Kyle May stated that Morris was not happy about being detained and had been banging her head against the metal cage in the patrol car and was asking to be allowed to leave.  In fact, Detective Gregory noted in his report "Morris immediately advised she did not want to go through with the investigation in regards to her sexual assault report on the unknown officer."  Morris further stated that she did not want to pursue this matter any further and would not cooperate in the investigation.  Detective Gregory though was not dissuaded.  In fact, he basically lied to Morris when he let her believe that she had to come to the downtown police headquarters and fill out a refusal to prosecute form so that they could honor her wishes to be left alone.  Feeling she had no other choice, Morris agreed.  The following is a portion of the recording of Detective Gregory and Morris' first interview.  This recording has been edited for time.  A redacted version of this complete video recording will be posted to this episode's home page at holtzclawtrial.com.

 

25:56[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, Terri Lynn.  I’m sorry I took some time.  Thank you so much for coming down.

 

Terri Morris:I don’t know what police to trust anymore.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  Well, I don’t even know who the guy is.  I understand your concern.  Okay?  And, like I say, I’ve worked sex crimes a long time.  Okay?  And I—I’ve put cops in jail.  I’ve put handcuffs on cops.  Well, you’ve been very difficult to find.  Okay? And I think you’ve shown…

 

Terri Morris:I really wasn’t hiding, I just, I guess was I not at the right—or at the wrong place at the wrong ti—right time, whatever.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Yeah.  I understand.   You know I gotta encourage you to go through and talk to me, okay?

 

Terri Morris:[inaudible]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I—I can’t have this guy running around Oklahoma City.

 

Terri Morris:I—I, but somebody else can do it.  I don’t want to.  I just wanna leave it al—I went—I’m not trying to get these me—I just wanna get this out of my… [trails off].

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

 

Terri Morris:I just wanna be left alone.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I understand.  And, and I’m not trying to harass you, okay?

 

Terri Morris:I take, I take a lot of medicines and I just want… [trails off].

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Well, I—I, like I say, I’m not trying to harass you.

 

Terri Morris:I know.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  I—I really…

 

Terri Morris:I know.  I know.  Just…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I’m just trying to look out for a lot of women out there.

 

Terri Morris:I know.  I know.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And, and…

 

Terri Morris:But I just, I can’t do it.  I’m not str—strong enough right now.  I can’t.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  Is it even… is it even possible that I could show you some pictures? 

 

Terri Morris:No.  I don’t want to please.  Please. I just wanted to leave it alone. I just want to go.  I just wanna go about my life.  Please.  Please don’t. I don’t wanna see him or nothing. 

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Well, well, I…

 

Terri Morris:Oh my god, no.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Well, I don’t even know if I have—my, my deal is is I don’t even wanna chase after the wrong guy, you know?

 

Terri Morris:Okay.  But I don’t want to.  Please don’t. I don’t wanna be a part of nothing, no more.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  L—l—let me ask you, Terri.  And I know you don’t…

 

Terri Morris:Don’t do this to me, please. 

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I know you don’t know me, okay? I know you don’t…

 

Terri Morris:But I just don’t wanna be a part of it no more. I already got… I was already scared from the get down and I just wanna leave it alone.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:What would you think if they got stopped by this guy?

 

Terri Morris:They’re not, please, I don’t, I—I [inaudible] think right now.  I can… that’s too much for me.  This is too much for me.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:It’s, it’s too much?

 

Terri Morris:Yeah, I just.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Is it…

 

Terri Morris:I don’t know before that I just got out the mental hospital before that happened to me.  I just can’t.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:[stuttering] is your mental health—what, what have you been diagnosed?

 

28:32

Terri Morris:Paranoid schizophrenic with depressive features.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Schizophrenic?

 

Terri Morris:Post-traumatic disorder.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:With, with what kind of features?

 

Terri Morris:Depressive.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, do you know, it s—this says location of offense.

 

Terri Morris:It was at a shel—uh, downtown, I don’t know, downtown.  Somewhere down here.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:W—where was…

 

Terri Morris:I don’t want, I don’t wanna rehash this.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Oh, okay, but I‘m just trying to figure out what location so I can write it down.

 

Terri Morris:I don’t know.  I don’t know because I’m not from downtown.  I’m from the Northeast area.  So I don’t know.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  Okay.  Terri.

 

Terri Morris:It didn’t seem that far away from the City Rescue Mission.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

 

Terri Morris:I don’t even… wasn’t really sure I was that far from the City Rescue Mission.  He said that.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:He said that?

 

Terri Morris:That we wasn’t that far.  Then he said… I don’t wanna talk about this stuff.  This is driving me… this messed up my whole life.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I—is there anything I can say to persuade you to change your mind?

 

Terri Morris:No.  No, I just…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:What if you needed more time?

 

Terri Morris:No, I just wanna get it—cause I’m leaving in, that’s why my anie’s coming to get me at the end of May cause I’m having a hard time dealing with this.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  Well, I, you know, I, are you sure you wouldn’t look at a few pictures?

 

Terri Morris:Please don’t make me.  Please.  Don’t. No.  Just.  I sign here?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Yes ma’am.  You know I wish you would talk with me.

 

Terri Morris:Yeah, I know.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I’m still gonna give you my, my phone number cause I hope, I hope you do.  Cause I, I don’t want this guy on my police department.

 

Terri Morris:Me, I don’t want him near me.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I, I don’t want this guy to touch my daughters, your daughters.

 

Terri Morris:[inaudible] near me at all.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I can’t tell you.  I—I—I just, I—I alm—I wanna beg you to give me information.

 

Terri Morris:Huh?  I know.  I [inaudible] person.  Then I [inaudible] like he said.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, Terri.  He’s gonna take you back.

 

Terri Morris:Sorry, I’m so sorry.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Wherever, okay.

 

Unidentified officer:You wanna go back to the house on Urban League?  Is that where I’m taking you?  Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You, if you change your mind, call that number, okay?

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

30:39

Host:With Morris' signing of the refusal to prosecute form, Detective Gregory was forced to put the investigation on hold.  Fast forward now to June 18th and the Ligons’ traffic stop and subsequent interrogation of Holtzclaw.  You'll recall during the interrogation, Detective Gregory asked if he had any recollection of stopping someone named Terri Morris during the City Rescue Mission in downtown Oklahoma City and then giving them a ride. Daniel said he did not recall that name but was certain he's never patrolled that area and never given someone a ride to or from the City Rescue Mission.  After the interrogation, Detective Gregory decided he needed to contact Terri Morris again.  And once, again, CI, Cal, was able to locate Morris and contacted police, who detained Morris for Detective Gregory.  Not to be too cynical, but what Detective Gregory claims happens next is like straight out of a script of a low budget cop movie.  According to Detective Gregory, the moment Morris sees him walking up to her, she exclaims, "He did it again, didn't he?!"  Cue the dramatic music and insert the eye rolls.  I don't mean to be sarcastic here, and it may seem out of place, but trust me, I'll be getting into a plethora of provable lies by Detective Gregory in the coming episodes.  Needless to say, and conveniently enough, that comment was not recorded.  According to Detective Gregory, Morris was willing to cooperate in looking at a photo lineup and discussing details of the case but that she didn't want to be taken back to police headquarters.  Detective Gregory had Detective Daniel Higginbottom show Morris the photo lineup and note her response.  The following is an edited version of the audio from that photo lineup conducted with Terri Morris.

 

32:32[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory:This is Detective Gregory.  Uh, I’m here with Terri Morris, at Northeast Twenty First and Kelley.  It’s June 24 of 14 and it’s 6:32 p.m.  Uh, I met with Terri, she said she would do a photo lineup.  Terri, this is, uh, Detective Higginbottom.  Okay.

 

Terri Morris:Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And he’s gonna speak with you and I’m gonna step on outta here, okay?  Okay.

 

Terri Morris:Don’t leave me please.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  I—I’m just gonna step right over there, okay?

 

Terri Morris:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:All right.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Okay, Terri. How you doing?

 

Terri Morris:I’m fine.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:All right, can you hear me just fine?

 

Terri Morris:Yes, sir.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Okay.  All right, Terri.  In a moment, uh, you’ll be shown a series of photographs in random order. This series may or may not contain a photograph of the individual who committed the crime being investigated. You do not have to identify anyone. The person showing you the photographs does not know the photo—uh, photographic identity of the suspect. While looking at the photographs, keep in mind hair styles, facial hair, clothing, etcetera, are subject to change. Also, photographs do not always accurately depict a person’s complexion.  It may be darker or lighter than it appears in the photograph.  Also, disregard any differences in the shape, size, type, quality, or color in the photographs or the paper on which they are printed.

 

Terri Morris:[coughing] Excuse me.  I’m sorry.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:It’s okay.  You should only, uh, you should study only the person depicted in each photograph.  Please do not speak to anyone other than the administrator while viewing the photographs.  You must make your own decision and not be influenced by any other person.

 

Terri Morris:Yes.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:As you look at each photograph, if you see someone you recognize, please tell the administrator how you know the person.  If you see a person you believe committed the crime, state in your own words how sure you are of the identification.  Okay. Please do not indicate in any way or other witnesses you have or have not made in other identification.  Okay, I have read or been advised of the above instructions and I fully understand them.

 

Terri Morris:Yes, sir.

 

34:47

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Okay, let’s just sign right there.  And today’s date.  It’s the, June 24th.  Six twenty-four.

 

Terri Morris:Is that right?

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Okay.  And it is approximately 6:37.  You okay?

 

Terri Morris:Yeah.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Okay.

 

Terri Morris:I think so.  That’s… that’s him.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Okay.

 

Terri Morris:I think.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Okay, well, let me…

 

Terri Morris:I don’t, wait…

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:I’ve got several photographs to show you.

 

Terri Morris:I don’t know.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:So…

 

Terri Morris:I’m not really sure.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Here’s the first one.

 

Terri Morris:It kinda look like him.  No, that’s not him.  No. I—I don’t know, it could be him.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Okay.

 

Terri Morris:See, that confused me there.  No, that’s not him.  No.  No, not him. No.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:No?

 

Terri Morris:That number two.  I can’t…

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Okay.  Well, let’s go through it again.

 

Terri Morris:I wanted to see it.  I’m not really sure.  It may not be him.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Okay, we’ll start with this one.

 

Terri Morris:I don’t think it’s him.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:No?  Okay.

 

Terri Morris:I don’t know.  Man, I’m con--

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Yes or no?

 

Terri Morris:No.  Could be.  

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Could be? Don’t know?

 

Terri Morris:No.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:No.

 

Terri Morris:No. No.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:No.  Okay.

 

Terri Morris:Could be him.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Could be, don’t know.

 

Terri Morris:I just don’t know.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Don’t know. Okay.

 

Terri Morris:[loud noise] It’s, like, out of two.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Do what?

 

Terri Morris:It’s out of two pictures.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:I can’t hear you.

 

Terri Morris:I said it’s coming down to two pictures that it could be though.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Out of two pictures? Which two are those?

 

Terri Morris:This one and that one.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:These two?

 

Terri Morris:Yeah.  I kinda see.  I don’t remember though.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Okay.

 

Terri Morris:Let me see.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Well, if you don’t remember, you don’t remember.  Okay? Not putting any pressure on you at all. You wanna make a decision on one?

 

Terri Morris:No.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:No?

 

Terri Morris:Cause I’m not positively.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Not positive. Okay.  Just one of those two.

 

Terri Morris:Yeah.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Maybe.  Is that what you’re saying?

 

Terri Morris:Yeah.  

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:What, what do you? Tell, tell me again.

 

Terri Morris:I’m gonna say that one but I’m not real real sure.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Okay.  That’s your final answer?

 

Terri Morris:It could be that, it could be that one or that one.  I don’t know.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:That’s your final answer?

 

Terri Morris:Yes.

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Okay.

 

Terri Morris:He had real dark hair [inaudible]

 

Det. Daniel Higginbottom:Okay, we’ll go ahead and conclude the interview at this time, okay?

 

Terri Morris:Okay.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

37:31

Host:While you're able to get a feel for how a photo lineup is conducted, since there was no video in that clip, you don't really get any sense as to which specific photos Morris is reacting to.  According to Detective Gregory's report, Morris initially tentatively identified two officers as potential suspects in her sexual assault, Officer Jeff Dutton and Officer Daniel Holtzclaw.  But, as you heard, she changed her mind several times and continuously stated she was uncertain and confused.  It's also important to know who was not included in the photo lineup shown to Terri Morris.  Detective Gregory intentionally left out Officer Jeff Sellers from the mix.  I find this interesting.  As previously reported, Gregory knows that Officer Sellers had had contact with Morris recently.  More importantly, Officer Sellers has a relevant and disturbing past.  In January of 2006, the Oklahoman newspaper reported that Officer Sellers had been fired from the department as the result of an internal affairs investigation that determined he had had sex with at least one prostitute while in uniform and on duty.  That prostitute reportedly made monetary a claim against the city for alleged damages.  Binding arbitration later forced the Oklahoma City Police Department to rehire Jeff Sellers.  Detective Gregory was asked if he found it concerning that Officer Sellers had had recent contact with Morris and that he also was known to have sex with prostitutes while on duty.  Detective Gregory claimed he didn't really know anything about that incident, even though it was widely reported on the news and was the topic of much conversation within the police department.  As disturbing as the fact Officer Sellers was left out of the photo lineup is, exactly how Detective Gregory creates his photo lineups is even more concerning.  I am quoting from page 3,312 of the jury trial transcript.  Question: “Whenever you assemble a line-up what are you trying to do?”  Detective Gregory's answer: “Basically what we do is we get six pictures together and then we have who we think maybe is the possible suspect somewhere in the middle of them.  And we're just trying to see if the victim can identify who we think it is."  This detective just admitted they allow their bias to dictate the direction of their investigation, all the way down to what photos are selected to show potential victims.  After the photo lineup is complete, Detective Gregory sits down with Morris for the second time to try and interview her.  The following is some edited audio from that interview.

 

40:29[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory:Here again, just kind of, I know you said you just, you didn’t want to talk about this…

 

Terri Morris:[Inaudible]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:But I—I’d like for you to just answer a couple questions for me.  Okay? Can you just run down through the story one more time for me?

 

Terri Morris:Uh, it’s like I done told this story, like, a thousand times.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  But I’m trying to catch it here.  Okay?

 

Terri Morris:Oh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:So, I don’t have to keep bothering you.

 

Terri Morris:Well, I was trying to find my way back to the rescue mission, because, uh, I don’t really know my way downtown very well and I was staying at City Rescue Mission.  I had to come to the East side that day.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

 

Terri Morris:And, uh, the police car pulled up on me, and stopped, asked me my name, all that familiar stuff.  Took my purse, search it, then put me in the car while he run a check.  I didn’t have no warrants or nothing.  Then, uh, well, I had, I had a, a pipe though.  And he said, ‘I could take you to jail for this, you know?’  And I was like, oh, oh man, cause I relapsed because my boyfriend cheated on me.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And you what?

 

Terri Morris:My boyfriend cheated on me.  We was just kinda breaking up.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:All right, he, you found the pipe. Then what?

 

Terri Morris:Yeah, and, uh, so, he just kept kinda messing with it.  Playing with it in the front.  Then he got out.  Came over. I was sitting there, like I’m sitting. He opened the door and he asked me, uh, he said, he asked me, uh, he said, uh, told me to unzip my pants.  He said unzip, he said, ‘You got any panties on?’ He told me to raise my shirt up. Then he told me to give him some…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Did—did you raise your shirt up?

 

Terri Morris:Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Did he ask you to raise it so he could see your—your breasts?

 

Terri Morris:He didn’t say that, he just said raise your shirt up.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

 

Terri Morris:And he wanted me to unzip my pants.  And I was like, ‘What?!’  cause I know it wasn’t right.  Then he, uh, asked me for some, some, some oral sex.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:What?  How did he ask that?

 

Terri Morris:Oh, I can’t.  He said, uh, ‘You give me some head and I won’t take you to jail.’ Or something he was saying.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

 

Terri Morris:I said, ‘Take me to jail for a pipe?’  I say, ‘You throwing them things away and break em.’

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Then what?

 

Terri Morris:Then I just kinda got quiet and I cried and I asked him, ‘Please, don’t do thi—make me do it.’  And he said, ‘Just, just do it for a couple of minutes.’  Uh, then he would leave me alone, he said. So I did.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Did he take it out through his zipper?

 

Terri Morris:Y—uh… 

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Or above it?

 

Terri Morris:I don’t know.  It was already, I don’t remember.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

 

Terri Morris:Yeah, I didn’t even see him.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:How long did he have it?

 

Terri Morris:Uh, probably about a couple of minutes.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:A couple minutes.

 

43:12

Terri Morris:Then he wanted me to do it again.  And uh, [inaudible] then he said, ‘You know you can’t tell anybody about this, Terri’ or something, and I said, ‘I just want get back to this mission.  I just wanna go back City Rescue Mission.  I’m just trying to find my way.’  And he says, uh, ‘You wanna ride?’  I said, ‘No, I can walk it.’  And he, and I got out and I was gonna make a step and he said, ‘No, I don’t want nothing to ha—bad to happen to you.’  He said, ‘Get back in the car.’  So, I got back in the car and I was like, ‘I can walk.  I’ll find it.’  And then he pulls somewhere where he started going another route.  And I seen it once and I was like, ‘Hey, that’s the place right there.’  He said, he said you know he was gonna go around or something.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:The place meaning the rescue mission.

 

Terri Morris:Yeah.  He said he was gonna go around cause he [inaudible] I said, ‘This ain’t the right way.’  And he said, and then he kinda pulled, he pulled somewhere not that far.  It wasn’t far.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Did you stay at the mission that night?

 

Terri Morris:No, I left.  I was just, I was traumatized.  Still am.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

 

Terri Morris:It freaked me out.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And you said it was a car like this one.  The older police car?

 

Terri Morris:Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay, describe him one more time.

 

Terri Morris:Oh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You know this is important.

 

Terri Morris:I know, but I… just…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:How tall?  How tall do you think he is?

 

Terri Morris:About six one, maybe six two.  Six feet.  Anywhere.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  What color hair?

 

Terri Morris:Dark brown, black.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

 

Terri Morris:Uh…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And was he clean shaven?

 

Terri Morris:Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:What do you think he’d weigh?

 

Terri Morris:Uh, I’m not good with weight like that. I don’t know.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  I’m six foot and I weigh two twenty.

 

Terri Morris:Okay, I’ll say maybe, uh, two sixty, two seventy.  I don’t know.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  All right.  And he was what race?

 

Terri Morris:I can’t, I think he was white.  Maybe he had some Indian in him or Irish or something, cause his skin complexion was, like, you know, like, a dark color.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:He was darker?  Okay.

 

Terri Morris:Like, he’s white, but it’s, like, I don’t know.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Did you see his eyes?

 

Terri Morris:I can’t remember, man.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You can’t remember.  Okay.

 

Terri Morris:I wanna say they was blue, but I cannot remember.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You see any scars, marks or tattoos?

 

Terri Morris:No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  And was he thin or, how would—

 

Terri Morris:Nah, he was, like, solid muscular like.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Solid, muscular?

 

Terri Morris:Yeah.

 

45:35

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  And had he ever stopped you before?

 

Terri Morris:I really don’t know.  So many polices done stopped me.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Do you think he ran you that day?

 

Terri Morris:Huh?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You think he checked you for warrants?

 

Terri Morris:Who?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:This officer.

 

Terri Morris:When?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:The, the day that it happened. Do you think he—

 

Terri Morris:Well, he s—I don’t know, he was up there doing something on the thing, but I didn’t hear nobody get…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:What thing?  Like the computer like that?

 

Terri Morris:Yeah, but I didn’t ever hear nobody get back with him.  Oh, I think, no, he did, cause he said I was clear.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Did you hear a radio?

 

Terri Morris:Um, I think so. 

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

 

Terri Morris:I’m getting confused now.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:It’s okay.  I—I don’t wanna confuse you.

 

Terri Morris:Shoot.  I need my medicine now.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Do you remember him calling out your name?  Like to a dispatch?

 

Terri Morris:Yeah, he said T.  No, I don’t know.  There was a mosquito.  I th—I think he—I think he said my name.  I’m not really sure anymore.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Do you think the computer was on?

 

Terri Morris:I don’t know.  I was just scared to death.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You don’t know.

 

Terri Morris:I think it was.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:So, you think you—you gave him head for two minutes?

 

Terri Morris:I don’t know, two or three.  I don’t know.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Did he have his hands on you while you were doing this?

 

Terri Morris:No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:No?

 

Terri Morris:I don’t know.  He may have.  I can’t remember.  It’s all… everything’s kinda jumbled all up.  Ya’ll asking some hard questions.  I can’t remember.  My memory’s not that great.  I don’t think so, but I’m not one—one—one hundred percent sure.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Is there anything you can think of that I didn’t ask?

 

Terri Morris:He had on a uniform like that.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Like, like mine?

 

Terri Morris:Looked like not a damn strand of hair didn’t look like it was out of place.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Do, do what?

 

Terri Morris:It didn’t look like none of his hair was out of place.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Did he have a part in his hair?

 

Terri Morris:Yeah.  There.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You’re showing your left side, is that right?

 

Terri Morris:Well, I don’t know which side, being a part.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:How old do you think he—

 

Terri Morris:Maybe it was that side.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:How old do you think he was?

 

Terri Morris:Maybe, I don’t know.  Thirties, forties.  I don’t know [inaudible].

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:And what time of day do you think this happened?

 

Terri Morris:I don’t know, man.    Maybe, I don’t know.  About six, seven, eight.  It was dark.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Oh, was it in the morning?  Or was it the—in the afternoon?

 

Terri Morris:No, it was dark.  It was evening.  It was dark. It wasn’t late.  But it was beginning, you know, it started getting dark. Just got dark.  Hadn’t been dark that long.

 

47:58

Det. Rocky Gregory:So, you’re not for sure on the time? Now, before, you s—you thought it was at the end of May.  May 20th, 21st, is that still?

 

Terri Morris:Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:That still sounds right?

 

Terri Morris:Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Like, just a couple days before you talked to the officers?

 

Terri Morris:Yes, sir.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  Are you interested in going forward with this?

 

Terri Morris:No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You sure?

 

Terri Morris:Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You know I want you to cause I told you about—

 

Terri Morris:Yeah, yes, sir.  I know.  I don’t wanna be involved no more.  I’ve done, that’s all I can do.  I just wanna put it behind me.  I wanna…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You just what?

 

Terri Morris:Just, I wanna put it behind me.  Get it out of my system.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Hang on one second, I need to ask, that you don’t know a, a Jannie?

 

Terri Morris:Jannie?  I don’t know a Jannie.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Do you know a Jannie Ligons?

 

Terri Morris:No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Black female.  About fifty-seven years old.

 

Terri Morris:No.  I don’t know her.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  Now, you’re still saying a couple blocks from the mission?

 

Terri Morris:Yes.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:I know I keep covering it but you know that there’s a reason.  Do you know which direction?

 

Terri Morris:No, cause I didn’t even know my way around downtown, period.  [inaudible]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Did he ever touch your breasts?

 

Terri Morris:No, he just told me to raise my shirt.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:How far did you raise it?

 

Terri Morris:I raised it all the way up, like he told me.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:So, did your boobs come out?

 

Terri Morris:Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:What’d he do when you…?

 

Terri Morris:Nothing.  Can I please go?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  I’m not gonna keep you.  I just, but you understand why I—I’m asking all these questions.

 

Terri Morris:I don’t wanna answer no more questions. That’s a lot.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:You got my phone number, right?

 

Terri Morris:Yeah, oh, your number, no, I need it again.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.  Hey, don’t be running on off.  Hang on.  I know you’re rip roaring ready.  Grabbing your purse and ready to run.  You got a FI card?  Now, you remember my name, Detective Gregory.

 

Terri Morris:Yeah, I thought your name was Greg.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Even if you lose this, know I work at Sex Crimes, Oklahoma City.  And all you gotta do is call downtown if you think of anything that would be helpful.

 

Terri Morris:Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Okay.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

50:00

Host:We've now heard this very detailed version from Terri Morris numerous times.  First, to each of the two officers that responded to the Valero gas station 911 call.  Then, to Lieutenant Holland after she arrived on scene.  We next heard it, each of the two times that Detective Rocky Gregory interviewed Morris.  While some of the small details changed - inside the car, outside the car, breasts exposed, not exposed, touched, not touched - the main points remained constant.  The rape occurred just a few days prior to Christopher Shelton's 911 call.  Morris specifically stated either the 20th or 21st of May.  Shelton was the first person Morris confided in.  The sexual assault occurred in downtown Oklahoma City and Morris was walking from a drug rehabilitation center to the City Rescue Mission.  The officer was driving an older model black and white 2010 Crown Vic.  And lastly, the officer who raped her exposed his penis with little to no effort and he was not wearing a condom.  All of these things Terri Morris was sure of and repeated over and over again.  Next, throw in the fact that the very first time we hear about this rape is during what is often referred to as an unsolicited excited utterance in the background of Christopher Shelton's 911 call.  Then, there's Morris' description of her attacker.... Mixed race, white male, at least six foot tall, solid muscle, about two hundred and sixty pounds, clean shaven with dark hair.  It sounds a lot like Daniel Holtzclaw.  I'd be insulting you if I didn't admit it didn't look good for Daniel.  But what if I told you, Terri Morris is about to admit that the majority of her story is a complete and convenient lie.  And she's not the only one caught lying.  That and more in the next episode of Bates Investigates, the podcast, season one, The State of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw.

- END - 

EPISODE 6

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EPISODE 7

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 EPISODE 8

Episode 8 ׀Daniel Holtzclaw: Sherry Ellis Allegations

 

[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE ENDS]

 

Timestamp: The following episode contains investigative events which occurred between July 28and August 5, 2014.

 

01:26

Host: Welcome back to Bates Investigates - Season One: The State of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw.  This is episode eight.  When we left off last episode, Assistant District Attorney, Gayland Gieger, had agreed to file one criminal count each of Forcible Oral Sodomy against then twenty-seven year old Oklahoma City Police Officer, Daniel Holtzclaw.  The charges were in response to allegations made by fifty-seven year old, Janie Liggons, and forty-three year old, Terry Morris. We also learned that detectives put Holtzclaw and his attorney on notice that OCPD Lab Analyst, Elaine Taylor, had found female DNA on the fly area of Holtzclaw’s uniform pants.  As I explained last episode, the female DNA in question is nothing more than a tiny speck of common skin cells.  The same type and quantity you would expect to see from innocuous contact like a handshake, a pat down on bare skin, or even from rummaging through another person’s personal belongings.  What wasn’t found with the DNA was any evidence of consensual or non-consensual sexual contact: no pubic hairs, no blood, no semen, no saliva, and no vaginal secretions.  Despite that reality, Oklahoma City Sex Crimes Lieutenant, Tim Muzny, and Detectives Kim Davis and Rocky Gregory, determine Holtzclaw must have additional victims and they set out to identify them.  

 

3:10

Their first step?  To pull the names of every one Officer Holtzclaw had run through the police department’s database from April to June 18 of 2014.  From there, they eliminated all male individuals.  But then, Lieutenant Muzny takes an additional step—he further reduces the list to black females with a history of prostitution and/or drugs.  According to detectives own records, Lieutenant Muzny then distributes this much smaller list to Detectives Davis and Gregory for follow up.  For unknown reasons, every investigator questioned at trial denied the existence of this targeted list.  According to Detective Davis’ own report, one of the very first names on that list that doesn’t exist was thirty-nine year old, Sherry Ellis. Ellis fit the profile Lieutenant Muzny had arbitrarily created.  She was a black female with a history of both prostitution and drugs.  More importantly, though, records show that Holtzclaw had run Ellis through the Varuna database four times over two days and three patrol shifts on May 7 and 8, 2014.  On July 24, Detectives Davis and Homan set out to locate Ellis.  Over the next several days, detectives visited several addresses and called numerous phone numbers listed in the Varuna database. While they were able to locate a recent ex-boyfriend, an older gentleman, who was wheelchair bound, named Terry Mack, they were unable to locate Ellis.  On August 1, 2014, Detective Davis located a social media account for Ellis, and sent her, and at least one of her relatives, a message. The next day, Ellis called Detective Davis back.  The following is a recording of that call.

 

05:14[RECORDING BEGINS]

[PHONE RINGING]

 

Sherry Ellis:Hello?

 

Det. Kim Davis:Is this Sherry?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Sherry, this is Detective Davis.

 

Sherry Ellis:Yes, ma’am.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  [laughter]  You sound frantic in your messages.

 

Sherry Ellis:Oh, yeah, because I, uh—because I don’t know—because I don’t know what’s going on.

 

Det. Kim Davis:It’s—it’s—it’s okay.  That’s why I f—that’s why I—I been wanting to find you and just ask you something, okay?

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis:I have received a tip on—I been workin—I work in Sex Crimes and I been working some cases, and I received a tip that you may have been sexually assaulted by a police officer.

 

Sherry Ellis:Yes, I have.  But I, I didn’t say anything because I didn’t—cause I know that the po—I know police department and police they all stick together.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Well, we ain’t sticking together on this one.

 

Sherry Ellis:Oh, okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis:So, I would like to interview you.

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay, well, uh, it ha—uh, it happened to me, like, maybe, I’d say three months ago.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:I was walking down the street and I got stopped and he run my—he run—he run a check on me and he found out that I had some City warrants and tickets and he asked me what did—what did he—what did I feel like I needed to be done.  And I told him what did he mean.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Uh huh.

 

Sherry Ellis:And he said, ‘Well, what do you think that needs to be done about the situation, um, Sherry?’  And I was, like, and still, I was like, ‘What do you mean what d—do I think?’  He say, ‘Well, uh, wh—what do you think?  Cause do you think you need to go to jail?’  And I’m like, ‘Well, I got tickets.  Are you gonna take me to jail or are you not?’

 

Det. Kim Davis:Uh huh.

 

Sherry Ellis:And next thing I know… 

 

[exasperated breath and shuffling before Ellis begins speaking to a third party in the background]

Sherry Ellis:Hey, I got to go to the bathroom cause this is like, very, very serious.

 

Third Party Male:  All right.  Just [inaudible] close that door [inaudible].

 

Third Party Female:You close this?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah.

 

Third Party Female:Okay.

 

7:04

[To Detective Davis]

Sherry Ellis:And next thing I know he pulled his thang—he pulled his penis out and put it into my face.  And then, after that, he put me back in the back of the police car, and he took me to the park over there on, uh… over there off of Miramar took me out and told me to pull my pants down.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:And then he said well I was free to go and he let me walk off.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:I didn’t ever get his badge number.  I don’t know anything.  I was terrified.  I just didn’t know what was going on because he’s all—he, he, he said I do that or he was gonna—I don’t know, I didn’t know whether if I still did it…

 

Det. Kim Davis:It’s okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Or is he gonna take me to jail or what? It was a black man.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay, but I don’t know his name or anything.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:But it happened—it happened, like, maybe, I—I’d say maybe three or four months ago.  

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:And I told a cou—I told a couple of people. I told my, my husband.  And, uh, he told me to go to the, uh, to the hospital…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Mm hmm.

 

Sherry Ellis:But I had alr—I had had sex with him too, and he said that if I said sex with him and him, it wouldn’t ma—it wouldn’t a made no—no difference.  It wouldn’t have made—it wouldn’t—it wouldn’t have did any good.  Or something he told me.

 

Det. Kim Davis:What?  Tell me what the—an—an—and I’m not—I wanna interview you in person, so…

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay.  And he, but he also that night, when he picked me up, he also, uh, called in and that’s how he found out that I have—I had City warrants.  I don’t have any County warrants, I have City warrants.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Did he do that on his radio?  Or on the computer?  Or…

 

Sherry Ellis:Huh?

 

Det. Kim Davis:Did he call—call you in…

 

Sherry Ellis:He ca…

 

Det. Kim Davis:…to check you for warrants…

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah, he called me…

 

Det. Kim Davis:…on your radio or your computer?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah, he called, he called, he called me in to check for the—check for em, on his, on the c—the police computer.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Computer or did he say it on the radio?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, he, he pulled it up on the computer.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Computer.

 

Sherry Ellis:And then he called.  Then he called in.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Mm hmm.  

 

Sherry Ellis:And they called…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Called, like, on his telephone?

 

Sherry Ellis:On his, uh, thing.

 

Det. Kim Davis:On his radio?

 

Sherry Ellis:On the police—yeah.  And then they told him that I had—that’s when—that’s how he found out that I had warrants.  City warrants.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  Okay.  What, um…

 

Sherry Ellis:He was in a black and white police car.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Did he, um, and, uh, just—and like I said, I—I don’t want to go into depth here, cause I think it’s rude that I talk to you about a sexual assault [laugh] on the phone.  I wanna schedule a time to interview you.  But what was the sexual assault?

 

9:23

Sherry Ellis:Uh, well, when I—when he first, when he first pulled me over and he was asking me what we was gonna do about this situation, th—I—I was looking down and then when I looked up he had pulled his penis out and had—and had it in, like, in my—cause I was sitting in the back police car and he was standing up over me.  And he pulled his penis out and had it in my face.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Did…

 

Sherry Ellis:[inaudible]

 

Det. Kim Davis:Did he put it in your mouth?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yes, he did.  And then after I did th—I did that, he told me to get back—he told me I had to get back into the police—back of the police car and he drove me into the p—he drove me—he drove me into the park right there off of Miramar and, Sixteenth and Miramar, that park. 

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:And went in the back of it—uh, behind this building, and told me to get out and pull my pants down.  And I bent over and he had sex with me.  He had sex.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Uh…

 

Sherry Ellis:And then he told me—he told—then he told me I was free to go.  And he let me walk off.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Then he—and after that happened, I stopped walking at night.  I mean, I—I—af—during the day, once it gets dark I—I stopped walking cause I didn’t want to have to go back.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Right.

 

Sherry Ellis:I didn’t want to have to see him no more cause I was—I didn’t know what was gonna happen.  I didn’t want that to happen to me no more, so I just stopped walking completely.

 

Det. Kim Davis:What was the name of the park?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh… oh… okay, you know, six—I don’t know the name of the park, but you know Sixteenth and Miramar?  

 

Det. Kim Davis:Uh huh.

 

Sherry Ellis:Northeast Sixteenth and Miramar?

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  What? Do you?  Can you tell me, um, oh, I lost my train of thought there.  What—where were you walking when he stopped you?

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay, I was walking from my house.  I use to stay on Sixteen—uh, Sixteenth and Terrace. I was walking off of Highland. And when I—I was walking, I went down Sixteenth and Terrace until I—I hit Highland, and then I turned right going down Highland, then I passed, uh, Sixteenth Street and Highland, and then I went down just a little bit farther, and maybe a block and a half after that is when he pulled me—stopped me.

 

Det. Kim Davis:So, were you—were you on Highland when he stopped you?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yes, I was on…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Yes, I was on Highland.

 

Det. Kim Davis:What, um, what…  What’s today?  It’s Friday. I’m off Monday.  Do—what are you doing Tuesday?  Can—Can I meet with you Tuesday?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, yes.  Yes, you can.  Um, I—I’m going to school now.  I’m—I’m going to school five days a week.  I’m at—as a matter of fact, I’m at school right now.

 

11:36

Det. Kim Davis:Where do you go to school?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, OCI.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:I—cause I’m—I’m getting my GED.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Good for you.

 

Sherry Ellis:And, uh, I been going here for almost three weeks now.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:So, I mean, I’m—I go Monday through Friday from 8:15 to 2:45, so… Tuesday, I have, uh, I have a lecture so it—it’s better for me to come on a Tuesday because all I’m doing is sitting in there listening to this man talk.  So, that’ll give me a break.

 

Det. Kim Davis:What… well, do you want a break or do you…

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah, I mean, I—I done had enough lectures. I mean, I’m not gonna miss any—it’s not gonna—I’m not gonna miss too much j—all in one day.  

 

Det. Kim Davis:What—what—

 

Sherry Ellis:[inaudible] one day.

 

Det. Kim Davis:what about this, what about this, what about tomorrow?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, tomorrow’s Saturday?

 

Det. Kim Davis:Yeah.

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, I gotta go out of town tomorrow. Kingfisher.

 

Det. Kim Davis:What about Sunday?

 

Sherry Ellis:Mmm… Sunday?  I don’t—I don’t think I have anything planned Sunday, I don’t know. But Tuesday is, is, is fine with me. Tuesday is fine.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay, you tell me what time and where.

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay, Tuesday?  What ti—what time and where?  Uh, where you want me to meet you, up at your—at where you are?

 

Det. Kim Davis:Yeah.  You wanna just come to the station?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis:[inaudible]

 

Sherry Ellis:I’ll have my um, I’ll have my hu—my, my boyfriend bring me up there.  What’s the, what’s the address?

 

Det. Kim Davis:The, it’s the downtown station.  Across the street from the County Jail.

 

Sherry Ellis:Downtown station?

 

Det. Kim Davis:Yeah, the Oklahoma City Police Department Headquarters.

 

Sherry Ellis:Oh, okay.  Oklahoma, Oklahoma City Police Department.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Mm hmm.  At the—do you know where the County Jail is?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yes, I’ve been there [laughing].

 

Det. Kim Davis:Do you know where the police department is right across the street?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Yeah, that building.

 

Sherry Ellis:I—I know, I—I know somebody that knows somebody that knows where…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis:We’re right across the street from the County Jail.  East, like, on the corner of um, Colcord and Shartel.

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay.  Well, my—my—my boyfriend gets off at 3:30 and I’m gonna have him bring me up there.

 

Det. Kim Davis:So 4:00?

 

Sherry Ellis:So, say [redacted] say, say, I’d say 4:30.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Tuesday at 4:30.

 

Sherry Ellis:Am I gonna be in any trouble?

 

Det. Kim Davis:Absolutely not!

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay, because they said that I was go—I—okay, all right.

 

Det. Kim Davis:No.  Not…

 

Sherry Ellis:But I just kept it to myself.

 

Det. Kim Davis:No.  

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis:And that—an—and, like I said, I li—I—I got a tip and I’m following up on it.  And, and… cause… And I completely understand where you, you know, everybody says no cops stick up for themselves and stuff.  Nah, we don’t put up with this.

 

Sherry Ellis:Oh.

 

Det. Kim Davis:  It’s wrong. It’s wrong.  It’s more than wrong.

 

13:53

Sherry Ellis:Okay, ma’am.

 

Det. Kim Davis:So, um…

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay, now, now, now I feel a little better, cause I was, like, I ain’t did nothing since I been out the penitentiary. I’ve been on the straight and narrow road.  And I’ve been paying my fines.  And I was—everything was going through my mind, and I’m, like, uh…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Nope.  You are not in trouble.  Um, he is.

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis:And I just wanna meet you, and I wanna do full blown interview.  I mean, I’m gonna ask you a ton of questions.  Like, okay, well, how, did you take ten steps and then you turned? You know, just, go into all the details of it.

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay, ma’am.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay?

 

Sherry Ellis:I’ll see you—I will see you Tuesday at 4:30.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay, keep my number if something changes.

 

Sherry Ellis:Oh yes, I got it.  I got it.  I got it in my—in my phone.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Thanks, Sherry.

 

Sherry Ellis:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Bye bye.

 

Sherry Ellis:Bye bye.

 

[RECORDING ENDS]

Host:As promised, just a couple of days later, Ellis arrived at the Oklahoma City Police Department Headquarters in downtown Oklahoma City.  Ellis then met one-on-one with Detective Davis.  The following is the audio from their meeting.

 

14:53

[RECORDING BEGINS]

[footsteps]

Det. Kim Davis:And if you need the restroom or something, tell me and we’ll take a break.

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Just have a seat right there.  Oh.  All right. I’m glad you came in.  Were you kinda nervous?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis:I thought you would be.  Okay, I’m just gonna get some background information from you first.  Okay?  And, some of the questions I’m gonna ask you—this is what I ask everybody, so don’t… I want background information from you whether it’s good, bad…  I don’t care if you assassinated the president and his dog.  I—it doesn’t matter to me.  I just am getting the background.  The same background I get from all my victims.  Okay?  So, but, let me make sure, is Sherry, S-H-E-R-R-Y?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yes ma’am.

 

Det. Kim Davis:And it’s Ellis, E-L-L-I-S?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Is your birthday 2/20/75?

 

Sherry Ellis:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  Where are you living right now?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, I’m staying in a room.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Where at?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, Thirty Ninth Expressway.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Like a hotel?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Um, how long have you been staying there?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, I’m going on a month.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  Any cha—okay, how do I get ahold of you in the future in case this goes to court?  Do you have, like, do—where do you get your mail?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh… Right…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Like, do you have a mom’s address or a dad’s address?  That’s a permanent location?

 

Sherry Ellis:Not really. Uh, I get my mail at my grandma’s address, but I don’t have her address on me I don’t think.

 

Det. Kim Davis:What’s your grandma’s name?

 

Sherry Ellis:[redacted] But, really, I don’t want her, eith—I didn’t ev—I was going over there to tell her today about what I had to do and, uh, I really—she’s old.  I really don’t want her involved.

 

16:56

Det. Kim Davis:Ho—if this goes to court and we have to mail you a subpoena, where do you want it mailed?

 

Sherry Ellis:You gotta ask him.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:You gotta ask him.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  All right.  Um…

 

Sherry Ellis:Cause he, he got a mom that’s been over there a d—almost twenty something years, over there where I use to stay on Sixteenth and Terrace.  So, his momma stay right around the corner and she been there for several years.  So that’s…

 

Det. Kim Davis:And you can get s…

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah.  It would be all right.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  All right.  Other than what happened to you, what we’re gonna talk about today, have you ever been the victim of a crime?  Like, have you ever been assaulted, have you ever been raped, have you ever been molested as a child?

 

Sherry Ellis:Unh uh.  

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  Now, I know you’ve been arrested.  What—cause you said that you recently got out of prison for…?  What have you been arrested for?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, I been arrested for Burglary Two.  

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:That’s what I went to the penitentiary for.

 

Det. Kim Davis:How, how much time did you do?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, I had three years in, two years out. 

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:I spent eighteen months and then I got out.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Um, I, uh, uh, I had been in, uh, a predicament, um, when I was in Spencer.  Assault and Battery with a Dangerous Weapon, but the State didn’t pick that up.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay, so it wasn’t char…

 

Sherry Ellis:So, it was…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Wasn’t filed?

 

Sherry Ellis:No. 

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay. 

 

Sherry Ellis:But far as that, um, I have—I have been, probably a couple, maybe ten, fifteen, twenty years, I don’t even think it was that long, but it’s been a long time, but I got in-uh-volved with a prostitution once.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Which, uh, it really, I don’t know why I got int—got caught up into the prostitution cause I wasn’t, but the police was, uh, doing a sting and they picked me up.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:And that was probably back in ninety—uh, two thousand.  Something like that.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:And that’s it.

 

Det. Kim Davis:What about, what about drugs?

 

Sherry Ellis:No.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Have you used drugs before?

 

Sherry Ellis:Um, I use to use weed.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  Any recent?

 

Sherry Ellis:Unh uh.

 

Det. Kim Davis:What about crack?

 

Sherry Ellis:Nope.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  Are you working right now?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, no I’m going to school.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Oh, that’s right; you’re going to get your GED.

 

Sherry Ellis:Five days a week.  Monday through…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Where do you go?

 

Sherry Ellis:OCI.

 

Det. Kim Davis:What’s that stand for?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, you know where the feds, uh, take drug tests?

 

Det. Kim Davis:Uh huh.

 

Sherry Ellis:And stuff like that?  Right behind that.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Good for you.

 

Sherry Ellis:That building.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Good for you.

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah, I been… I go five days a week, Monday through Friday, 8:15 to 2:45.

 

19:20

Det. Kim Davis:Is it hard?

 

Sherry Ellis:Mm… not really.  Cause I—I—I’m focused and ready to do it, so I’m…

 

Det. Kim Davis:You’re ready to get it done.

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah, cause when I was in the penitentiary I was trying to get my GED, but I had got out before I could get my GED, so…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Do they charge you?  Does it cost?

 

Sherry Ellis:Mm hmm.  Yeah, uh twenty five dollars.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Huh, that’s not bad.  Okay, are you married?  Single?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, I’m single.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Have you ever been married?

 

Sherry Ellis:Nope.  I’m alone. [inaudible] Terry Mack. Only me.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Do you have any kids?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis:How many kids?

 

Sherry Ellis:I have three.

 

Det. Kim Davis:What are their ages?

 

Sherry Ellis:A twenty year old, a nineteen year old, and a seven year old.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Do you have custody of the seven year old?

 

Sherry Ellis:No.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Daddy has custody?

 

Sherry Ellis:No, my cousin.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay. Did you lose custody when you went to p—prison?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah, um, th—that’s when I was doing cocaine.

 

Det. Kim Davis:What kind of cocaine?

 

Sherry Ellis:Crack.

 

Det. Kim Davis:I thought you said you didn’t use crack?

 

Sherry Ellis:No, I said I did coke—well, I don’t do it now.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Oh, but you have before?

 

Sherry Ellis:Be—before, yeah.  But I don’t do it now though.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Going to the penitentiary stopped a lot of stuff for me.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Yeah, it does.  Okay, um…

 

Sherry Ellis:But when she was born, they took her because she—I had crack I my system.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Oh, she tested positive.  [long pause]  Um, do you have any medical problems?

 

Sherry Ellis:Um, blood pr—high blood pressure.  Uh, I been goin—I went to Red Rock. Uh, um…

 

Det. Kim Davis:What—what’d you go to Red Rock for?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, I get medication for de—severe depression. Uh…

 

Det. Kim Davis:What do you take for that?

 

Sherry Ellis:Prozac.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Mm hmm.

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, I take J—J—J—Jurdon for, uh, calm me down.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Jurdon?  I haven’t heard of that one.

 

Sherry Ellis:J-U-R-D-O-N.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Do you have anxiety?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Is that what the Jurdon’s for?  

 

Sherry Ellis:Something like that.  

 

Det. Kim Davis:J-U-R-D-O-N?  Okay, and Prozac.  

 

Sherry Ellis:And um… what else I take?

 

Det. Kim Davis:Do you take medicine for your high blood pressure? 

 

Sherry Ellis:Mm hmm.  Lisinopril.

 

Det. Kim Davis:What is it?

 

Sherry Ellis:Lisinopril.

21:26

Det. Kim Davis:Any other medicines?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, Zantac, but that—that—that’s…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Oh, that’s just for…

 

Sherry Ellis:Heartburn.

 

Det. Kim Davis:That’s just for acid reflux, or whatever?

 

Sherry Ellis:Mm hmm.  That’s all.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  All right, when I talked to you on the phone, you told me that you thought this happened about three months ago?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh… probably about three months ago. What’s—this is, uh, Au…

 

Det. Kim Davis:This is August 5.

 

Sherry Ellis:So, about three months or four months ago. It would be like March, April.

 

Det. Kim Davis:When—you tell me when you think this happened.

 

Sherry Ellis:Bout three—bout four months ago.

 

Det. Kim Davis:About four months ago?  Where were you in your life at that time?  When did you get out of prison?

 

Sherry Ellis:I got out of the pen—I got out of the penitentiary in July of last year.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Oh, okay.  So, you’ve been out.  So, where—when—about four months ago, this happened, where were you living then?  

 

Sherry Ellis:I was staying on Sixteenth Terrace. Twenty…

 

Det. Kim Davis:With who?

 

Sherry Ellis:With, with J—with Terry.

 

Det. Kim Davis:With Terry Mack?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Sixteenth Terrace.

 

Sherry Ellis:Twenty two fifty eight Northeast Sixteenth and Terrace.  

 

Det. Kim Davis:Twenty two fifty eight Northeast Sixteenth Terrace?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Now, were you off on the dope and stuff then?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah, I was off.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:I was off.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Oh, you were off dope, then? 

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay, okay.  What, um, what time did you leave his house?  Why were you out?  What—you see what I’m saying?

 

Sherry Ellis:Um…

 

Det. Kim Davis:What were you doing that day?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, it was, it was before twelve o’clock.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Before midnight.

 

Sherry Ellis:Um, I was—I had left my house.  I was staying with Terry.  I had left my house, on my way to my cousin’s house.

 

Det. Kim Davis:On foot or in a car?

 

Sherry Ellis:I was on foot.  My…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Who’s your cousin?

 

Sherry Ellis:My cousin, Deon.  Her name is Deon Thompson.  Thomas.  But she lives, uh, up the street, around the—where I was walking—when I was on my way, uh, she stayed, like, maybe four blocks down.

 

23:31

Det. Kim Davis:Why were you going over there?

 

Sherry Ellis:Cause it’s my cousin and my nieces and nephews. I go over there all the time.

 

Det. Kim Davis:How do you spell Deon?

 

Sherry Ellis:D-E-O-N.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay, but that’s a female?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yes, ma’am. 

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  So, when you go… [papers shuffling] kinda draw me a picture from which way you went and stuff.

 

Sherry Ellis:Oh.

 

Det. Kim Davis:When you were walking.  It don’t have to be perfect, cause I cannot draw stick people.

 

Sherry Ellis:[Laughing]

 

Det. Kim Davis:So…

 

Sherry Ellis:This my house.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Miramar right here.  [inaudible] Miramar.  My house right here, but I was going this way from Miramar, going all the way down Sixteenth and Terrace.  

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay, you—th—the next block that you—the n—next major block you get to is right here.  This is Highland.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  Oh, you’re a lefty, too!

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay, I went across Highland.  Right here is an intersection.  That’s Sixteenth.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay, so you’re going back north.

 

Sherry Ellis:I’m still going down Highland.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:I cross Sixteenth, still going down Highland. There was a block, there was a—I passed a block, and then, half a block after that is when I got stopped.

 

Det. Kim Davis:So, he—this is Sixteenth.  Did you get to the next street?

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay, hold on.  This is Highland.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Mm hmm.  

 

Sherry Ellis:I went right here.  This is Sixteenth.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:I crossed Sixteenth.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay. 

 

Sherry Ellis:Down, still going down Highland.

 

Det. Kim Davis:And before the…

 

Sherry Ellis:Then there was another block.  Okay…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:I passed Sixteenth.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Kept on going.  There was a block.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:I passed that.  Before I could get to the other block, in the middle.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  That’s when… okay.  Let me kinda… Terrace to Highland, past Sixteenth, past next street, we don’t know what it is, before the next street.  Okay, what happened?  Did you—I mean, did he—what made—how’d you know a police car was there?

 

25:52

Sherry Ellis:I was walking.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Uh huh.

 

Sherry Ellis:And when I turned around, he—he had, he was, I guess he had come from behind me cause I wasn’t—I wasn’t…

 

Det. Kim Davis:You didn’t see him driving to you.

 

Sherry Ellis:I wasn’t paying attention to the back of me. I was just walking.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:So, I’m walking and then next thing I know, I—uh, uh, there’s lights behind me.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Like, car lights or… 

 

Sherry Ellis:You know his lights.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Or, or these lights?  

 

Sherry Ellis:Just, no.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Just headlights?

  

Sherry Ellis:Just, yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Behind me and then he pulled up and I—that’s when I realized that is was the police.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Cause you turned around?

 

Sherry Ellis:Cause I turned around, yeah, I turned around. Th—that’s when I f—found out it was the police.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Now, were his overhead lights on or anything? Just—you just saw that it was a police car.

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah, cause he…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Cause he pulled up behind me.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Like…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  Then what?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, he asked me to, uh, stop.  And, uh…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Was he in the car when he asked that?  Or was he out of—did he…

 

Sherry Ellis:He got o—he, he, he pulled over and got out.

 

Det. Kim Davis:He got out?

 

Sherry Ellis:And, t—asked me, uh, what was my name, and, uh, I told him.  And he said, ‘Well, can you come back here with me? Come back here for one second…’ S—talk to him.  So, I was by the police car.

 

Det. Kim Davis:On the driver’s side or the passenger’s side?

 

Sherry Ellis:On his driver’s side.  And uh, he asked me my name, like I said, and then, I had my purse and he asked me if I had anything illegal in my purse and I said ‘No.’ Which I didn’t.  So, he’s like, ‘Well, is it, uh, is—is—will it be all right, uh, if, uh, I check you to see if you anything illegal on you.’  And I’m, like, ‘No.’  But, I wasn’t thinking—you don’t suppose to—I don’t think a man’s supposed to do that, but anyway.

 

27:34

Det. Kim Davis:But, did you say ‘No.’?  

 

Sherry Ellis:I said, ‘No, I don’t have any.’

 

Det. Kim Davis:Or did you say, ‘No, I don’t care.’  What did…

 

Sherry Ellis:I said, ‘No, I don’t care.’

 

Det. Kim Davis:Oh, you said no—okay, okay.  So, you said, ‘No, I don’t care.’

 

Sherry Ellis:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  I didn’t know if you were saying ‘No, I don’t care’ or ‘No, you can’t check me’.

 

Sherry Ellis:No.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  Okay, go ahead.

 

Sherry Ellis:And then he, um, then, you know, he tu—he said, ‘Turn around.’  And I had my arms out and he checked me and…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Were your hands on the car or were you just standing like this?

 

Sherry Ellis:I was standing like this.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Kinda like a scarecrow?  Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:And, uh…

 

Det. Kim Davis:What did he do when he checked you?

 

Sherry Ellis:He checked me, and then he took, you know, he checked me all like that and…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Did he touch your boobs like that?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah.  And then he, uh, went between my legs and did that.  Like that.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Did what?

 

Sherry Ellis:Like that…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Did…

 

Sherry Ellis:Between my legs.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Just like that?  So, did he touch your vagina on the outside of your pants?

 

Sherry Ellis:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Did he touch your bottom on the outside of your pants?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:And, uh, he said, ‘Have a seat.’  So—and th—by that time he had opened the back of the police car door.  And he told me to have a seat there.  And, uh, I—I don’t know, I think I—I—I think I gave him my ID, cause I had my ID.  So, he ran my ID.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Did he sh—shut the door when you got in the car?

 

Sherry Ellis:[deep breath]

 

Det. Kim Davis:Are you sitting in the back of the car with the door shut?

 

Sherry Ellis:Wait, hold on.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  Just relax.  If I go too fast, you tell me I’m going too fast.

 

Sherry Ellis:Um… [long pause]yes.  

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:He shut the door when I was in the back of the police car.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:He got back in the front seat.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:And he started typing in his computer. My name.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Then, uh, he radioed and then, I guess, after a minute, they called back and said I had City warrants.

 

29:42

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:But while I was in the backseat, I’m looking at him pulling my information and stuff up.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Mm hmm.

 

Sherry Ellis:So, all my—everything that I’ve ever did is gonna be on that computer, so I see this.  Okay, my prostitution charge was way back then.  There…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Could you see that?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yes, I see it.

 

Det. Kim Davis:You saw where it said prostitute?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  I didn’t know if you could see the computer that well.

 

Sherry Ellis:Oh, yeah, i—in the back of the police car. But, uh, after a minute, they called—they—they hollered back at him and said, ‘She has some warrants.  City warrants.’  Woo woo woo.  For McAlister.  Which I have warrants in M—city warrants in McAlister for tickets.  And, uh, he got out the car, opened the door…

 

Det. Kim Davis:[inaudible]

 

Sherry Ellis:Where I was at, and he said, ‘Well, what do—what do you think we need to do about this?’  And, uh, I said, ‘What do you mean what do we need to do about this?’ And he said, ‘Well, what do you think we need to do about this situation?  W—w—w—what do you think we need to do?’  And I was like, ‘What do you think—what do you mean what do we need to do about it?’  [Laughing]

 

Det. Kim Davis:[Laughing]

 

Sherry Ellis:‘Am I going to jail?  Or am I not going to jail?  Or are you taking me to jail?  I mean, I don’t know what you—t—what—what you mean about what am I going—what are we gonna do about this?’  So, before I know it, h—he had pulled his thing out.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Did you even see him do that or was it just there?

 

Sherry Ellis:It was there.  And, uh, it was just right—I’m sitting down in the backseat and it’s, like, right there.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Was it hard?  Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:And, he had—he asked me—he told me this what I—this what he want me to do.

 

Det. Kim Davis:What did—did he say, ‘This is what I want you to do’ or did he tell you what to do?

 

31:38

Sherry Ellis:Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Y—you—what were his words?

 

Sherry Ellis:He said, [pause] ‘Put this in your mouth for…’ He [exasperated sigh] he ma—practically just said here it is, put it in your mouth.  Or, you know what I’m saying.  Here. Okay, and then I did that for [sigh] three, maybe four minutes or something.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:And then he said, uh, ‘Get ba—you wan—uh, g—get yo--put your feet back in.’

 

Det. Kim Davis:So, were you turned sideways where your feet were on the street?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah, and he said, ‘Get back in.’  And he closed the door and he got in the police car and drove off.  And drove, and hit the corner.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Point on here for me.

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay, this block right here th—by that time.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Hang on.  I’m catching up with you.  Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Oh yeah.  This where I—he had stopped.  Right here.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Mm hmm.

 

Sherry Ellis:This is the ot—this is the block that I didn’t get to.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay.  This block, he got to—he—he went and drove, he hit this block.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Mm hmm.

 

Sherry Ellis:And then there’s a p—he went to the, to the right.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Mm hmm.

 

Sherry Ellis:There’s a park where the old school was. There’s a old school over there. There’s a park behind the school.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:And he drove over the, uh, curb.

 

Det. Kim Davis:He drove over the curb?

 

Sherry Ellis:He drove over the curb going into the, into the, uh, playground.  It’s a big old field, playground.  Big old field.  It’s a, couple of, of buildings there.  And, uh, he drove and then he went around this other one building and he parked and he told me to get out and bend over.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  Is that school still a school or is it vacant?

 

Sherry Ellis:It’s a vacant school.  It’s off of Miramar and… Miramar and Highland.  It’s be—it’s in between, uh, he know what the school, cause his momma stay there.  He probably went to school there.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Who?  The guy that brought you down here?

 

Sherry Ellis:He probably know exactly what the…

 

Det. Kim Davis:What’s his name?  I forget.

 

33:51

Sherry Ellis:Ed.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  So, he told you to get out.

 

Sherry Ellis:He told me to get out.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Did he open the door?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis:For you?  Then what did—what happened after y—you stood up?

 

Sherry Ellis:He told me to, he told me to pull my pants down.  Uh…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  What’d you say or do?

 

Sherry Ellis:I didn’t say nothing, ma’am.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay, that’s fine.  That’s okay.  Did you pull your pants down?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay, then what?

 

Sherry Ellis:Then he stuck his—then he had sex.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Well, what position are you in?

 

Sherry Ellis:I’m bent over.  From the behind.  From…

 

Det. Kim Davis:W—were you still at the car or were you…

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah, well, I was, uh, I bent over by the car.

 

Det. Kim Davis:He…

 

Sherry Ellis:He opened the door.  I got out.  And I bent over.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Did…

 

Sherry Ellis:And facing the car.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Did he tell you to bend over?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah. 

 

Det. Kim Davis:Or how did he?

 

Sherry Ellis:He told me to bend over.

 

Det. Kim Davis:So, he said, ‘Pull your pants down…’

 

Sherry Ellis:And, ‘Bend over.’

 

Det. Kim Davis:And, ‘And bend over’?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yes.  And I was facing the car.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Were any part of your body touching the car while you were bent over?  I mean, were you kind of leaning on it or no or…

 

Sherry Ellis:I might have been leaning on it.  [Sigh]

 

Det. Kim Davis:It’s okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:I tried to put this behind me.

 

Det. Kim Davis:I know.

 

Sherry Ellis:[Crying]

 

Det. Kim Davis:I know.  I don’t have any—do you want me to go get you some Kleenex?  Some tissue?  It sucks.  I know it’s hard to talk about.  Just take your time.  If you want something to drink, tell me, I’ll go get you something.

 

Sherry Ellis:[strained] I—I think, um…

 

Det. Kim Davis:If you don’t know, you don’t know.  And tell me, ‘I don’t remember.’  It’s okay not to remember.  It’s okay.  We’re just gonna put that.  I didn’t know if he, like, took you to the merry-go-round or the teeter-totter…

 

Sherry Ellis:Oh, unh uh. 

 

Det. Kim Davis:Or, you know?

 

Sherry Ellis:Unh uh.  Mm.

 

35:51

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Um... but then, um…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Let me ask you some, some yucky questions. You said he did it.  Did he put it in your vagina or your bottom?

 

Sherry Ellis:He put it in my vagina.

 

Det. Kim Davis:What—did he have problems keeping it erect or anything?

 

Sherry Ellis:Unh uh.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Did he wear a condom?

 

Sherry Ellis:I don’t even know.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Did he come?

 

Sherry Ellis:I don’t even know.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  Did he say anything while he was having sex with you?

 

Sherry Ellis:Unh uh.

 

Det. Kim Davis:He didn’t say any—a word?

 

Sherry Ellis:No.

 

Det. Kim Davis:How long do you think that lasted?

 

Sherry Ellis:Um, about ten minutes.

 

Det. Kim Davis:What do you think made him stop?

 

Sherry Ellis:Um, I guess, I guess cause he had enough. I don’t know.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Did he just stop?  Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis:What happened after he stopped?

 

Sherry Ellis:He said, ‘Have a nice night.’  And let me walk away.

 

Det. Kim Davis:He walked away or you did?

 

Sherry Ellis:He ha—he said, ‘Have a nice night’ and let me walk.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  What’d you—where’d you go?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, [sigh] I went back to the house.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  And is that when you told Terry.  What did he say?

 

Sherry Ellis:Um, he told me, um, I should go and turn him in.  And he said that, um, i—i—i—since he did that to me, he, he supposed to—he should—he probably has, uh, DNA and stuff on me, but I had—I had been—I had be—I had been messing with him.

 

Det. Kim Davis:And you didn’t wanna tell Terry that?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah, but I did.  I told him.  I—that’s when, uh, a hell we—hell broke loose.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Oh.

 

Sherry Ellis:Cause I had to tell him that I had had sex before that happened to me.  So, like I said, me and Terry had been…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Is that what caused ya’ll to break up?

 

37:59

Sherry Ellis:[sigh] Me and Terry has—had been through problems—has been going through some things for a minute, but I had, I—I—like I said, I been with—had been with Terry, before I got with him, I had been with Terry for thirteen d—almo—a long, long, long, long time.  Me and Terry has been together since I was twenty years old. So, it’s—it—that’s—that’s kinda hard for me now.  I’m dealing with that situation, me and him breaking him af—two months ago.  Tw—maybe two and a half months now I ain’t been with Terry.  But I still keep in contact with him.  He’s the one that gave me the number…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Oh.

 

Sherry Ellis:That you was looking for me and stuff. And that’s—and told me, you know what I’m saying, everything would be all right, just you know.  He figured it was gonna be something.  But yeah, I went and told Terry and he said, ‘Well it wouldn’t be no good for you to go, uh, to the hospital having two DNAs in you because you’d have to answer questions.  And, uh, I said, ‘Well, okay,’ and then I thought about, like this… This the police.  If I say something, I’ll be harassed for the, uh, for the whole duration.  I don’t wanna have to walk down the street.  I don’t have to look—wanna have to look—every time I look around somebody harassing me over something because of what I did.  Because I don’t know noth—I didn’t know—I really don’t—didn’t know what, what to do.  Really I—because it’s the police.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Mm hmm.

 

Sherry Ellis:This the first thing that....  This the first thing that has ever happened to me like that so it kinda made—it kinda messed me up a little bit.  But I was…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Well, sure.

 

Sherry Ellis:I was just trying…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Cause the police aren’t supposed to do that. And then who, who do—you tell the police who are they gonna believe?

 

Sherry Ellis:Well, like I said, um, what I’m saying is true, and if I have to I’ll take a lie detector test.

 

Det. Kim Davis:No.

 

Sherry Ellis:I just wan…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Sherry.  I believe you.  If I didn’t believe you, I wouldn’t have been calling you trying to find you.  Do you know anybody by the name of Terry Morris? Female.

 

40:08

Sherry Ellis:Um… see, the point about it is I have a lot of, uh, associates that I—I really don’t know…

 

Det. Kim Davis:That you don’t know that you know [laughing].

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah.  Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis:That’s okay, off the top of your head, do you know anybody by the name of Terry Morris.

 

Sherry Ellis:No.  I—I—I kinda, the, the name sound familiar but I…

 

Det. Kim Davis:What about Jannie Ligons?

 

Sherry Ellis:[sigh]  Unh uh.  I don’t know them by name. That’s the whole point.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  That’s fine.  That’s fine.

 

Sherry Ellis:That’s how I don’t how somebody would know my name.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  Let me ask you this.  You give me. Tell me your description of him.  

 

Sherry Ellis:He’s black.

 

Det. Kim Davis:He’s b—okay, he’s a black male.

 

Sherry Ellis:Muscular.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Muscular.  How tall, could you tell?

 

Sherry Ellis:Oh, let me see. 

 

Det. Kim Davis:You’re pretty tall.  How tall are you?

 

Sherry Ellis:[Sigh] Maybe, is it that?

 

Det. Kim Davis:How tall are you?

 

Sherry Ellis:Five eleven.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Was he taller than you or shorter than you?

 

Sherry Ellis:He was, like, right here, maybe.  Like that.

 

Det. Kim Davis:So, you think he’s shorter than you.

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  Did he have any facial hair?  You can sit down.

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh… [laughing] [inaudible]

 

Det. Kim Davis:If you don’t know, you don’t know.

 

Sherry Ellis:Umm…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Glasses?

 

Sherry Ellis:Unh uh.

 

Det. Kim Davis:No glasses?

 

Sherry Ellis:Unh uh.

 

Det. Kim Davis:And when you say he’s muscular, how much would you, like, big muscular?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah, like work out.  Like, he wasn’t fat, but, like, he worked out.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  Did you see his penis?  Did you pay attention?  You know, like, when it was right in your face.

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah, it was long.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Was it circumcised?  Could you tell?  It was?

 

Sherry Ellis:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Could you see any pubic hair?

 

Sherry Ellis:No, he, he unzipped it, uh, from his pants.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:He didn’t take—he didn’t take belts and all that off or nothing like that.

 

Det. Kim Davis:He didn’t take his gun belt off or anything?

 

Sherry Ellis:Unh uh.

42:08

Det. Kim Davis:[long pause] Did he threaten you in any way of if you tell…

 

Sherry Ellis:He didn’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Nothing?  

 

Sherry Ellis:No.

 

Det. Kim Davis:What kind of car did he have?

 

Sherry Ellis:A black and white one.

 

Det. Kim Davis:A black and white car.

 

Sherry Ellis:Oklahoma City Police car.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Have you seen him since then?

 

Sherry Ellis:I try not to ma’am.  After that happened, after night falls I’m in the house.  I don’t—I don’t walk around.  I don’t—I—I wasn’t trying to see him anymore.  I just took myself in after certain time of the day, I put, go in the house.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Yeah.

 

Sherry Ellis:And I don—if I don’t have my stuff from the store by that time, I’m not trying to go to the store.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Cause you’re afraid he might find you again?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, I—I, w—I didn’t know.  Yeah, I didn’t know w—if it was gonna happen.  I don’t want it to happen again.  I didn’t know.  Cause he patrol—he had to be patrolling the east side like that for him to just b—be like that, cause he’s… [deep breath] I don’t know.  I don’t know.  I don’t know. I just stopped walking at night time.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  

 

Sherry Ellis:I don’t know.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Would you kn—recognize him if you saw him again?  Like, if I laid out six pictures, could you pick him out?

 

Sherry Ellis:Probably not.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Did you ever look at his name tag?

 

Sherry Ellis:No, I didn’t look at anything.

 

Det. Kim Davis:How come?  I mean, and I’m not questioning.

 

Sherry Ellis:Um..

 

Det. Kim Davis: I’m trying to figure out what’s going through your mind.

 

Sherry Ellis:I don’t… I di—I don’t know. 

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:I just didn’t.

 

Det. Kim Davis:That’s fine.  That’s fine.  Um…

 

Sherry Ellis:That’s what everybody else ask me, why [sigh] I don’t know.

 

Det. Kim Davis:It’s okay.  It’s okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Cause I—I, like I said, I tried to put this in the back of my mind.

 

Det. Kim Davis:I know.

 

Sherry Ellis:Cause I didn’t believe they—I didn’t say nothing and I just thought it would go away.

 

Det. Kim Davis:And then I called you.

 

Sherry Ellis:Yes.

 

44:09

Det. Kim Davis:Did you have any idea when I call—when you found out I was looking for you?

 

Sherry Ellis:Mm… at first, no.  And then, um, Terry said this was something dealing with sexual, uh, sexual, and, I said well that’s the only thing it could be. Somebody done said something, told—said something about my name, or something like that, cause I know I didn’t say nothing, so… that’s the only thing, cause I paid my fines, so I won’t go back to the penitentiary.  And my, uh, tickets, I still ain’t took care of them.

 

Det. Kim Davis:I’m not worried about those.

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay.  But I still ain’t took care of them.

 

Det. Kim Davis:That’s fine.

 

Sherry Ellis:But until I get to, uh, s—where I can ge—in a motel room paying two hun—two hundred every week is kinda killing me right now.  You know what I’m saying?

 

Det. Kim Davis:Mm hmm.

 

Sherry Ellis:And I don’t ha—I’m going to school and it’s—I have to struggle for that two hundred dollars so the fines right now, I’m, I, when I was s—supposed to went to court I was in the penitentiary so if they do pi…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Are they Oklahoma City fines or the McAlister fines?

 

Sherry Ellis:They Oklahoma City fin—I got Oklahoma City fines that…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:But, but if I do go to jail, I wasn’t—I was in the penitentiary, so…

 

Det. Kim Davis:So, they went to warrant cause you weren’t in court.

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah, but I was in the penitentiary…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Right.

 

Sherry Ellis:So, how could I go to court if I was in the penitentiary?  So, uh, that’ll help me out a little bit.  And then I can get a payment plan.  Maybe I can go from there with the fines.  But far as the County, I don’t have no felony warrants or nothing like that, cause I ain’t—I been doing real, real good, far as that.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  Well, let me, let me tell you this.  I want to get a DNA sample from you today.  And the reason I want to get a DNA sample is because I know what officer did this to you, okay?  And there is some unknown female DNA on his pants that I took and I wanna see if it’s yours.

 

Sherry Ellis:Well this, this happened four months ago to me.

 

Det. Kim Davis:I know.  But you never know.  He might be nasty and not wash his clothes [laughing] you know?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Do you have a problem with that?

 

Sherry Ellis:Unh uh.  

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay. [papers shuffling]  This is a waiver saying that you are gonna let me, Kim Davis, and I’m a detective and this is where we’re located, are gonna let me take buccal swabs.  It’s just Qtips on the inside of your mouth.  To get a DNA sample so I can compare it to the DNA on his pants. Okay?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yes, ma’am.

 

46:37

Det. Kim Davis:Sign right here.  You got good handwriting.  Especially for a lefty, usually we’re kinda sloppy.

 

Sherry Ellis:[Laughing]

 

Det. Kim Davis:[papers shuffling] I’m gonna do two on one side and then two on the other side, okay?

 

Sherry Ellis:Mm hmm.  I was asking my friend, I was like, all this is coming down, am I gonna—do—should I be scared to move around and h—have to worry about him, getting, something happening to me, and…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Sherry, he’s not in a police car anymore. Okay?  He’s—he’s not working anymore.

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis:He—you can walk down the street.  He’s not out there.  Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:They said after this is all over I’ll have closure.  I sure hope so.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Who said that?

 

Sherry Ellis:My friends.  Telling me to get…

 

Det. Kim Davis:I’ll talk to you a little bit about that too.

 

Sherry Ellis:Telling me to get it off my chest and…

 

Det. Kim Davis:I’m gonna give you my card.  I’m gonna offer you free counseling if you want it. And I’ll do whatever I can to help you get closure, okay?  [long pause and shuffling noises] Do you have any questions?  I’m gonna go—you know the Lieutenant brought you up here?  Let me go talk to him real quick and make sure that he doesn’t have any more questions for me to ask you.

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay, well, I’ma ask you a question

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

48:33

Sherry Ellis:Uh, like I said, I’ve—I’ve had—I been having—uh, I’ve had—having a rough time right now.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Because of this or just…

 

Sherry Ellis:No, just because, I’m not with Terry.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Financially?

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:So, I’ve been paying my fine every month. But, this, this month I’m gonna have—I’m gonna be a little late.  Do you think that they gonna issue a warrant for my arrest?

 

Det. Kim Davis:On which fine?

 

Sherry Ellis:On…

 

Det. Kim Davis:On the traffic tickets?

 

Sherry Ellis:My, s—my fines that I have to pay, that I been paying fifty dollars every, uh…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Court fines or whatever.  Or is it…

 

Sherry Ellis:From after I went to the penitentiary.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Restitution?  Do you know what your fines are for?

 

Sherry Ellis:I have to pay fifty dollars every month. I’m on probation.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:After I got out the penitentiary.  I been paying fifty—ever since I got out in July, I been paying fifty dollars, fifty dollars.  This is the first month…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Who’s your probation officer?

 

Sherry Ellis:I don’t have a probation officer.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:It’s unsupervised.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Is it through Oklahoma County?

 

Sherry Ellis:Uh, yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Let me, uh, tomorrow… cause they’re closed, I will call and find out what we can do.

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay.  

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay?

 

Sherry Ellis:Even I can just come up with, like, maybe twenty dollars or something.

 

Det. Kim Davis:I’ll call and find out what we can do.

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay, and just let me, let me know and, and, and, I’ll try to come up with it.  But I’m late.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:But I usually send it off on the third. This is the fifth.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:And I don’t want—I—I—I’m worried about that right now.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.

 

Sherry Ellis:Cause I have to figure out if I can—have to go to my grandma or my, my momma, my, uh, anie, or somebody.  Somebody have to help me cause right now…

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay, I will—I’ll get an answer for you. Um, would you be willing to drive me to the area where he… I wanna know where he pulled his car.

 

50:10

Sherry Ellis:Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  All right, stay here for just a minute.

 

Sherry Ellis:You wanna jus—you wanna go right now?

 

Det. Kim Davis:Mm hmm.  

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis:But hang out.  Let me make sure nobody else has any questions.

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay?

 

Sherry Ellis:Um, just make sure—I just have to let my friend, uh, uh, follow us.  

 

Det. Kim Davis:That’s fine.

 

Sherry Ellis:Cause he, like I say, he stay right around the corner.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay, hang on just a second.  I’ma leave the door open so you kinda don’t get claustrophobic.

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay.

 

[Footsteps and shutting door]

 

Host:At this point Detective Davis steps out of the room for approximately two minutes and fifty seconds.

 

[Shutting door and footsteps]

 

Det. Kim Davis:One more question.  When you described him as a black male, what… and I don’t know, everybody’s—like, what i—are you?  Are you a medium color?  What’s your skin tone to you?

 

Sherry Ellis:Mm… I’m light.

 

Det. Kim Davis:You’re light.  Okay, what was he?

 

Sherry Ellis:He’s darker.

 

Det. Kim Davis:He’s darker than you? 

 

Sherry Ellis:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Darker than your skin tone?

 

Sherry Ellis:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay.  Um, so you’re comfortable, cause I know you’re a nervous wreck.  What if you go with Ed, and we follow you to—doesn’t—didn’t you say he lives right around the corner?  And then, we’ll follow you there, then you get in our car, show us where the officer picked you up, and then show us the school, and then we’ll drop you back off at Ed’s.  

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis:You com—comfortable doing that?  Are ya’ll parked right in front of the building?

 

Sherry Ellis:We’re on the side, I think.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Okay, let’s, let’s, let me get, let me get you with Ed.

 

Sherry Ellis:Okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis:And let me get our stuff so we don’t get lost.

 

Sherry Ellis:Yeah, that’s my support group.  That’s my support right there.

 

Det. Kim Davis:Turn right.  I’m gonna, I think he’s over here.  [footsteps and voice fading]  No, he’s not. I bet he went to the break room. [laughing]

 

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

51:52

Host:Immediately following this meeting, detectives Davis and Gregory took Sherry Ellis in their car to retrace Ellis and Holtzclaw’s route.  According to police records, Detective Gregory took thirty-five photos during this time.  That said, much like when Terry Morris was also taken to point out alleged crime scene locations, neither detectives bothered to audio record what must have been in depth conversations about their allegations.  A few days later, the investigators received copies of Daniel Holtzclaw’s patrol car AVL and radio dispatch history from his May 7, 2014, encounter with Ellis.  And like Ellis’ description of her attacker, a “short black man,” Holtzclaw’s AVL reveals problems with Ellis’ allegations that detectives are apparently far too eager to dismiss.  I’ve posted copies of the police reports from this episode, Sherry Ellis’ telephone conversation with Detective Davis, her audio and video recorded in-person meeting with Davis, and a copy of the photos taken at this episode’s homepage at holtzclawtrial.com.  

 

53:12

In the next episode, I will be discussing additional information received by investigators, courtroom testimony, and my take on what may have actually taken place during the early morning hours of May 7, 2014.  If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to subscribe and give us a five star review.  If you would like to know more and see many of the files used to compile this episode, please visit this season’s homepage at holtzclawtrial.com. You can also follow updates on our Facebook page at In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw, or on Twitter @HoltzclawTrial.

EPISODE 9

Episode 9 ׀Daniel Holtzclaw: Sherry Ellis Allegations Wrap Up

  

[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE ENDS]

 

Timestamp: The following episode contains investigative events which occurred on August 5, 2014.

 

01:26

Host: Welcome back to Bates Investigates - Season One - episode nine.  I am your host, licensed Private Investigator, Brian Bates, and I am breaking down the case of the State of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw.  I was a member of Daniel Holtzclaw’s original criminal defense team and this podcast follows the format of the case, as presented by the prosecution but with the scrutiny of the defense. In the last episode, Oklahoma City Sex Crimes Detective, Kim Davis, had been trying to reach thirty-nine year old Northeast Oklahoma City resident Sherry Ellis.  On August 1stof 2014, Davis and Ellis had a telephone conversation wherein Ellis alleges she was twice raped by an Oklahoma City patrol officer at two different locations during the same encounter. At the end of their telephone conversation, Ellis agrees to meet with Detective Davis on August 5, 2014, at police headquarters to discuss her allegations in detail.  In episode eight, you heard both of those conversations, and I have posted the video recording of the second interview on episode eight and episode nine’s homepage at holtzclawtrial.com. While Ellis never names her attacker, Detective Davis has already determined that it must be Daniel Holtzclaw.  Despite the fact that Ellis clearly stated that her attacker was a short black male police officer driving the older model patrol car.  In this episode, I'm going to break down Ellis' claims, and go over the evidence, contradictions, and give you my thoughts as to what actually may have happened when Holtzclaw and Ellis encountered each other in May of 2014.  According to Ellis’ August 5, 2014 interview with Detective Davis, she was on probation at that time after being previously released from prison in July of 2013.  Ellis had received a three year prison sentence for a Burglary Two conviction.  She ended up serving less than a year.  

 

03:38

Ellis also has convictions for Transporting a Loaded Firearm, Driving Under Suspension, Transporting an Open Container, Assault with a Deadly Weapon, and Offering to Engage in Prostitution. Ellis disclosed that she has three children, ages twenty, nineteen and seven.  Ellis lost custody of her youngest child at birth because she tested positive for crack cocaine. Ellis also stated she has received services from Red Rock Mental Health Facility and is on medication for severe depression.  At the time of the alleged rapes, Ellis was living with her much older, long-term boyfriend, sixty-four year old, Terry Eugene Mack, Senior.  Terry has a criminal history of his own, that includes time spent in prison for drugs and Possession of a Firearm After Felony Conviction.  Ellis also has another boyfriend, forty-six year old, Edwin Smith. Edwin, like Terry, also has a criminal record that includes state prison time for Larceny of a Vehicle and federal time for narcotics distribution.  In 2014, Edwin was living with his mother in her home just around the block from Terry and Ellis' residence. The following is a brief summary of Ellis' version of events.

 

05:03

Ellis can't remember the date, but she believes the rapes occurred about three or four months prior to her meeting with detective Davis.  That puts the date around April or May of 2014.  It's a little before midnight and Ellis walks out of her house in the twenty-two hundred block of Northeast Sixteenth Terrace that she is sharing with her boyfriend of about nineteen years, Terry Mack.  Ellis is heading to her female cousin, Deon's house, which is about four blocks away.  If you're following along with a map, Ellis walks westbound on Northeast Sixteenth to the first intersection.  She then heads northbound on North Highland Drive.  She continues walking in the dark past Northeast Sixteenth Street and then Northeast Seventeenth Street.  It's at this point that she can tell there's another vehicle also driving on North Highland Drive coming up behind her.  She turns, squints her eyes at the approaching headlights, and is able to tell it's a police car and it's slowing down.  Ellis recognizes the patrol car as the very common black and white older model Oklahoma City Police car that most officers drove at the time.  The patrol car stops and the officer gets out at five foot eleven inches tall and reportedly not using any drugs or alcohol at the time, Ellis confidently describes the officer as a black male with skin darker than her own, who is also shorter than her.  Ellis also clearly recalls that she was stopped while walking next to a Crepe Myrtle tree that is on Highland Drive between Seventeenth and Eighteenth Street.  The officer asks Ellis to walk to the back of his patrol car.  He next asks Ellis for her name and if she has any ID.  The officer then asks if she has anything illegal in the purse that she is carrying.  Ellis says no and agrees to let the officer search her belongings.  The officer then performs a search upon her by putting his hand in what would best be described as a karate chop position with his thumb up.  He runs his hand across the outside of her clothing, looking for weapons, drugs or drug paraphernalia.  Ellis says that during this search, the officer’s hand made contact over her clothing with her breasts, buttocks, and vagina.  

 

07:32

The officer then opens his patrol car door and has Ellis take a seat in the back.  The officer then returns to the driver's seat and called in Ellis to see if she had any warrants.  During this time, Ellis notices that her prior prostitution charge was pulled up on the officer’s patrol car computer screen.  Within a few minutes, the dispatcher comes back on the radio and tells the Officer Ellis has three outstanding city warrants.  The officer exits the patrol car, walks back to Ellis, opens her door and exclaims, “What do you think we need to do about this?”  Ellis is confused by the questions and wants to know if she's going to be taken to jail. Ellis then says that all of a sudden the officer’s erect, circumcised and well-endowed penis is exposed through the fly of his pants and is very near her face.  The officer tells her to put his penis in her mouth.  Ellis fearful what the officer will do if she refuses, complies.  Three or four minutes into the sex act, the officer suddenly stops, removes his penis from her mouth, tells her to turn and put her feet back into the patrol car and shuts the door. The officer returns once again to the driver's seat and begins to pull forward away from the curb.  The officer then takes the first right only a few yards away and heads eastbound on Northeast Eighteenth Street.  Northeast Eighteenth ends at what has been described as, “the abandoned school”.  When the officer reaches the end of the street, he jumps the curb and parks behind the abandoned school and next to what is most likely an old classroom outbuilding.  The officer exits his patrol car, walks back to Ellis, opens her door and tells her to step out.  The officer then tells Ellis to pull her pants down and bend over.  Ellis, scared, complies with the officers demands.  The officer then vaginally rapes her for about ten minutes.  Nothing is said by Ellis or the officer during the rape, and she is unsure if the officer wore a condom or ejaculated.  When the officer is done, he turns to get back in his patrol car and simply tells Ellis to, “Have a nice night”.  The officer then drove away through the school yard, leaving Ellis standing there in the dark, trying to make sense out of what just happened.  

 

10:02

Ellis walked between two of the buildings and then made a U turn and headed straight back to her house.  When she got there, she told Terry Mack that she had just been raped by a black, Oklahoma City police officer.  Terry tells Ellis she needs to report the crime right away and go have a rape exam.  Terry told Ellis that he believed all police officers DNA is on file and that the hospital could prove that she had just had sex with an officer.  But Ellis refused.  Terry gets suspicious and asks Ellis if she has had sex with someone else other than the officer that same day.  Ellis said that she did and admitted to having unprotected sex with Edwin Smith, another man that she's been having a relationship with that is living with his mother just a block or two away.  Terry then tells Ellis that there was no sense now in getting a rape exam because she had multiple men’s DNA inside her and they wouldn't be able to identify the police officers DNA.  And with her prostitution past, they probably wouldn't believe her anyway.  Ellis doesn't report the rape but was increasingly fearful to leave her house after dark.  She claims she spent the next few weeks upset and worried the officer would come looking for her.  Ellis and Terry's relationship broke down after she admitted to having sex with another man and they broke up just a couple of weeks later.  Ellis moved out of Terry Mack’s house and began living with Edwin out of motel rooms.  Ellis concluded the interview by submitting to a buckle swab or oral DNA test.  Detectives Davis and Gregory then reportedly took Ellis to retrace her route and take photographs of the locations of the alleged assaults.  You can see the photos taken by detectives at this episode's homepage at holtzclawtrial.com. With Ellis' story and the photographs they've taken, detectives set out to prove that it was Officer Daniel Holtzclaw who perpetrated her rapes.

 

12:10

You will recall that Ellis appeared on a controversial list compiled by Lieutenant Timothy Muzny and given to detectives Davis and Gregory for follow up, specifically as potential victims of Daniel Holtzclaw.  One of the first things that stood out to detectives was the fact that Holtzclaw had run Ellis through the police department’s Varuna the database many times on May 7th and May 8thof 2014.  This put Holtzclaw’s possible contact with Ellis well within the three to four month timeline she had previously estimated.  Detective Davis next requested copies of Holtzclaw’s patrol car GPS for the dates he had run Ellis through the Varuna database.  Several days later she receives a printout and they appear to match the approximate date, time, locations, and route described by Ellis.  According to Holtzclaw’s patrol car GPS, he was parked on North Highland Drive between Northeast Seventeenth Street and Northeast Eighteenth Street for approximately fifteen minutes from 12:58 a.m. until about 1:13 a.m. on the morning of May 8, 2014.  At 1:13 a.m. Holtzclaw’s patrol car is recorded heading eastbound on Northeast Eighteenth Street approaching the dead end.  There's a four minute gap in the GPS pings and at 1:18, Holtzclaw’s vehicle reappears and is next recorded driving northbound on Miramar Boulevard. Miramar is a north/south street which runs along the east side of the school property.  And with that, detectives Davis and Gregory consider this third accuser case closed.  Like Davis said in her interview with Ellis… 

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Kim Davis: I know what officer did this to you.  

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host: That's a pretty bold statement, and one I personally do not believe is supported by the evidence.  So, let's take a closer look.  You'll notice that detectives learned their lesson with accuser, Terry Morris, and they don't dare risk that same embarrassment with Sherry Ellis.  So they don't even present her with a photo line-up.  But how could they, really?  Detective Gregory has already admitted they intentionally construct photo line-ups to implicate whomever they believe is the guilty party.  And they want Holtzclaw charged.  But Sherry said her attacker was black.

14:41

They also don't show her a photo line-up of Oklahoma City Police vehicles.  She's already indicated her attacker was driving the more common, older, black and white patrol car, and they know Holtzclaw was driving the more rare, all black model. And what about those multiple times that Holtzclaw was running Ellis through the computer database? Remember, that's what detective said they found so suspicious.  At trial, Detective Davis gives a very incriminating reason for why she thinks Holtzclaw was doing this with Ellis.

 

From page 3,078 of the jury trial transcript: 

            Prosecutor Gayland Gieger - “Is it significant to you as a detective, as to what a police             officer, why a police officer would run somebody through Varuna without coming into           contact with them as a patrol officer? To try to, like, the normal reasons for it?” 

            Detective Davis - “Yes.” 

            Gieger - “What's significant about it to you as a detective in this case?”

            Detective Davis - “He's looking to see if she's made a report.” 

 

That sounds pretty ominous, doesn't it?  You've got a detective with decades of experience stating that the only reason an officer would run a criminal through their database without that person being stopped at that time, is because the officer was trying to see if that person filed a police report implicating them in a crime.  Here's the problem: Detectives Davis, Gregory, Lieutenant Muzny, and Prosecutor Gayland Gieger know that reasoning doesn't hold water. Police reports against other officers are not treated the same as police reports against citizens. If they were, then every officer would be tipped off about internal affairs investigations. Instead, reports incriminating police officers are kept extremely confidential. Those reports often only exist as super-secret Special Investigations database known only by the code name, Orion, and access to Orion is extremely controlled and limited.  Daniel Holtzclaw, nor any other patrol officer, would ever have access to this database.  

 

17:15

In reality, Holtzclaw often ran known criminals and suspects through the police databases looking for entail as to what was going on in the areas he patrolled.  Another thing I need to interject here is that detectives Davis and Gregory only spoke to Sherry Ellis around this time of the investigation and didn't even bother to contact Terry Mack, Senior, or Edwin Smith, until mid-September of 2014.  That's weeks after Holtzclaw has already been arrested, formally charged, and his face and details of the allegations have been plastered all over the news.  Had they spoken to Terry and Edwin sooner, they would have encountered even more discrepancies in Ellis’ story.  For one, Edwin claims that Sherry was assaulted, not walking from the home that she shares with Terry Mack, but while walking to her cousin’s from his house after they had just had sex.  And speaking of this cousin of Sherry Ellis'… during her interview, Sherry says her cousin only lives four blocks from Terry Mack’ss house.  That would have put her initial contact with Holtzclaw very near her cousin’s home.  However, at trial, Sherry claims that the cousin lives at Highland and Northeast Twenty-Second.  That's twice as far at eight blocks away.  Regardless, Sherry and Holtzclaw did make contact with each other on North Highland Drive somewhere between Northeast Seventeenth and Northeast Eighteenth Street.  Not just before midnight, like Sherry Ellis claims, but instead just before 1:00 a.m.  And we don't have to rely on just Holtzclaw’s patrol car GPS.  Like so many of the other accusers, Holtzclaw also radioed in his contact.  The following is the actual radio traffic from that May 7thearly morning stop.  Holtzclaw goes by the call sign Two Charlie Forty-Five.  I have condensed this approximately six minutes of radio traffic for time.

 

19:30[RECORDING BEGINS]

[DING]

Computer: Wednesday, May, Seven, Two Thousand Fourteen, Zero Fifty-Eight and Forty-Three Seconds

 

Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: Charlie Forty-Five [inaudible]

 

Dispatcher: [inaudible] 

 

[DING]

Computer: Zero One, Zero One and Forty Seconds

 

Dispatcher: Charlie Forty-Five, go ahead.  Charlie Forty-Five, go ahead.

 

[DING]

Computer: Wednesday, May, Seven, Two Thousand Fourteen, Zero One, Zero Two and Zero Seconds

 

Dispatcher: Charlie Forty-Five, go ahead.  

 

[DING]

Computer: Zero One, Zero Two and Twenty Seconds

 

[DING]

Computer: Wednesday, May, Seven, Two Thousand Fourteen, Zero One, Zero Three and Zero Seconds

 

Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: Two Charlie Forty-Five, [inaudible] All right, I’m back in.  I was just out of the car.

 

Dispatcher: Okay, yeah, called his wife.  Go ahead.

 

[DING]

Computer: Zero One, Zero Three and Twenty Seconds

 

Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: Got one to run. Last name’s Ellis.  At, that’s Edward-Lincoln-Lincoln-Ida-Sam.  First name is Sherry.  Sam-Henry-Edward-Robert-Robert-Young.  Date of birth is [redacted].  Black female. 

[DING]

Computer: Zero One, Zero Three and Twenty Seconds

 

Dispatcher: Charlie Forty-Five, she’s got three City AW’s, do you need em?

 

Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: Ten four.

 

Dispatcher: Ten four.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host: What you just heard was Holtzclaw, Two Charlie Forty-Five, moments after he encountered Sherry Ellis.  Holtzclaw radios in to let the dispatch know he has stopped somebody and to standby.  Dispatch, in turn, acknowledges his call, and lets him know he's second in line.  Three times after that, the dispatcher checks back in to let Holtzclaw know he can transmit the individual’s name for a warrant check.  Approximately four minutes after first making contact with dispatch, he radios in Sherry Ellis' name and date of birth.  One minute later, the dispatcher responds and lets Holtzclaw know Ellis has three city warrants.

 

21:36

A couple of things are important about this interaction.  One, it's another example, just like with Terry Morris, that patrol car GPS is not needed to establish Holtzclaw has made contact with his accusers.  He literally calls most of them in from his patrol car.  So, despite what you've been told, he doesn't try to hide the fact that he's made contact with each and every accuser.  Two, this radio traffic uncovers a discrepancy with Ellis' reported sequence of events.  Ellis claimed that the officer placed her in his vehicle, then he returned to the driver side and radioed in her information.  It's during this time that the officer allegedly looked up Ellis’ previous prostitution charge that she claims she saw on his computer.  And that he then received a call back from dispatch that she had active city warrants.  All of which, according to Ellis, took place while the officer sat in the driver's seat of his patrol car.  Keep in mind, this is all clearly prior to Ellis being allegedly forced to perform oral sex on the officer. It’s pretty obvious through the radio traffic I just played, that Holtzclaw was out of his patrol car and didn't realize dispatch had three times tried to reach him.  In fact, at trial, Detective Davis agrees with that assessment.  

 

This from page 3,104 of the jury trial transcript: 

            Prosecutor Gayland Gieger - “Was that significant to you, ma'am?” 

            Detective Kim Davis - “Yes.” 

            Gieger - “Why?”

            Detective Davis - “Because he's out of the car.  I mean, when you call Crime information,        and your number… you wait until your turn and then you call it in and he's gotten out of       the car.” 

 

23:31

What was Holtzclaw doing during this time?  I have no idea.  He could have been talking to Ellis. He could have been going through her purse while set it on the trunk of his patrol car.  He could have been looking to see if she tossed a crack pipe into the grass.  Regardless, according to Ellis, what he wasn't doing at that moment was assaulting her or even out of his patrol car. Additionally, at no time does Ellis ever even insinuate that radio dispatch kept calling for the officer and the officer ignored those calls.  Yet, at trial, Detective Davis seized upon this moment to insinuate to the jury that this was all too suspicious and Holtzclaw must have been up to something nefarious, even though her own alleged victim testified to the contrary.  In reality, this should have been a clue to this seasoned detective that Ellis' story wasn't adding up, or at the very least, her story needed additional clarification.  No evidence or exhibits were ever presented at trial that Holtzclaw ever accessed Ellis' previous prostitution arrest and conviction record.  Yet, not only does Ellis claim the officer didn't step out of his car during this time, but that she clearly saw him pull up her prostitution records.  And yet, somehow she missed the fact that the officer doing all of this was not a dark skinned black man, but instead an officer who was pale white in complexion.  Another note regarding Sherry’s City warrants - they were for unpaid City tickets.  They were not for felony crimes or any other offense that police policy would have required Holtzclaw to take her to jail.  But you don't have to take my word for it.  

 

25:26

This from page 3,116 of the jury trial transcript: 

            Holtzclaw’s Defense Attorney, Scott Adams - “And Miss Ellis, at this point in time, did have some warrants correct?” 

            Detective Kim Davis - “Yes.”

            Adams - “Again, they were municipal warrants that aren't of any great significance to the Oklahoma City Police Department, correct?”

            Detective Davis - “Correct.”

            Adams - “And it would not be unusual whatsoever for a patrol officer not to take          someone in on a warrant such as that, correct?”

            Detective Davis - “Correct.” 

 

This addresses another myth about this case.  Detectives, the prosecution, and the media have all repeatedly said that except for Liggons, all of his accusers had warrants when they were stopped by Holtzclaw and that Holtzclaw used those warrants against them to coerce sex. Furthermore, they claim that the fact he didn't take them to jail proves he was up to no good. The reality, however, is completely in contrast to those assertions and the prosecution and detectives know it.  For one, not all the accusers even had warrants. You'll recall in the Terry Morris episodes, she didn't have any warrants.  Two, in every case where warrants do exist, they are identical to Sherry Ellis' - simple City warrants for unpaid tickets, fines, or court costs. The very warrants Detective Davis admitted under oath are completely insignificant and often do not result in arrest.  Had any of the women had felony warrants or new misdemeanor crime warrants, Holtzclaw would have been obligated to arrest them.  At trial, Ellis changes her story to cast Holtzclaw in a more negative light.  You'll recall during her interview with Detective Davis that she was clear that Holtzclaw only touched her during the search on top of her clothing.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Kim Davis: So, did he touch your vagina on the outside of your pants?

 

Sherry Ellis: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did he touch your bottom on the outside of your pants?

 

Sherry Ellis: Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

27:33

Host: However, at trial, she said this.

 

From pages 2,985 to 2,986 of the jury trial transcript:

            Prosecutor Lori McConnell - “And tell me about the officer’s actions in searching you.”             Sherry Ellis - “When he searched me, he went up under my shirt and was just feeling up     underneath my breasts.”

            McConnell - “With his hands?” 

            Ellis - “Yes, ma'am.” 

            McConnell - “And I don't want to embarrass you, Miss Ellis, were you wearing a bra that          day?” 

            Ellis - “Yes, ma'am.” 

            McConnell - “Did his hands go on the inside of your bra or on the outside?”

            Ellis - “In the inside.” 

            McConnell - “So were his hands touching the skin of your breasts at that time?” 

            Ellis - “Yes, ma'am.” 

            McConnell - “Was he saying anything to you whenever he did that?” 

            Ellis - “No.” 

            McConnell - “What happened next?” 

            Ellis - “The—he started to go down, downwards in front of my—he put his hands inside          my pants and felt between my legs.”

            McConnell - “Okay. And whenever he put his hands inside your pants, are you wearing            underwear on that date, Miss Ellis?” 

            Ellis - “Yes, ma'am.” 

            McConnell - “Did his hands go on the inside of your underwear?” 

            Ellis - “Yes, ma'am.” 

            McConnell - “And what part of your body did they touch, Miss Ellis?” 

            Ellis - “He touched my—he touched my vagina.”

 

29:13

As with Liggons, Morris, and now Ellis, all three claim Holtzclaw was somehow able to almost magically and instantaneously expose his erect penis without any forewarning, fidgeting, or delay. We know Holtzclaw wears compression shorts with no fly, a long undershirt, a ballistics vest with a flap that hangs below his groin and that his uniform shirt is held in place below his groin with shirt stays that are attached to the top of his socks.  Yet, all three accusers up to this point claim their face was only inches from Holtzclaw groin, and they were never even able to see him reach down and unzip his pants.  You'll also recall, Terry Morris changed her claim at trial and insisted Holtzclaw had a condom on, and now Ellis claims Holtzclaw is well-endowed.  A claim that investigators know is not true and comes up at trial when prosecutor Gayland Gieger tries to have a nude photo of Holtzclaw admitted into evidence.  I'm not going to argue that Holtzclaw didn't have enough time to force Ellis to perform oral sex while stopped on North Highland Drive. Fifteen minutes is plenty of time.  However, when you subtract the amount of time we know Holtzclaw was still communicating with dispatch, you are only left with approximately an eight minute window to perform the oral sex and then drive away. I do, however, question whether or not it makes sense that Holtzclaw or any other officer would force someone to perform very public oral sex on them, while parked on a neighborhood street with homes literally facing in every direction and at that time of night.  The presence of his patrol car would have drawn the attention of anyone outside or looking through their window. Furthermore, why would Holtzclaw risk being caught at that location if he simply planned to take Ellis to a more remote location just minutes later?  Also, back to the initial stop on Highland, at no time does Ellis ever say that the officer who attacked her turned on his overhead strobe lights. Yet, Detective Davis conveniently uses those strobe lights as an excuse as to why Ellis may have described her attacker as a dark skinned black male.  This is an outtake from investigative journalist Michelle Malkin's documentary on the case, Daniel in the Den: The Truth About the Daniel Holtzclaw Case.  You can find the link to this highly informative documentary at holtzclawtrial.com.

 

32:10[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Kim Davis:  The overheads change everything.  When you t—the overheads are really bright—and changes the coloring of, um, people, and it washes out, and you just can’t see.

 

Michelle Malkin:  Would it change the height?  I…

 

Det. Kim Davis:  No, Sherry’s a tall girl, though.

 

Michelle Malkin:  Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis:  She’s a tall, thin girl. 

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: She is tall.

 

Det. Kim Davis:  Um, for a girl.  Uh, and no it would change the height, but…

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host: I personally don't even think Detective Davis believes what she's saying to investigative journalist Michelle Malkin in that clip.  Despite Detective Davis' claims, that police strobe lights somehow change the appearance of one's race from Caucasian to Black, none of Holtzclaw’s other accusers make that same mistake.  Regardless, Ellis didn't even attribute her misidentification to the strobe lights.  In fact, she stated that she thought her attacker was black and much shorter than her because it was dark outside and she didn't bother to make eye contact with him.  She made similar claims when she appeared on the television show 20/20. This is a clip from the May 20, 2016 airing of 20/20’s What the Dash Cam Never Saw.

 

 [RECORDING BEGINS]

Juju Chang: You describe him as being like this to you, right?

 

Sherry Ellis: Mm hmm.

 

Juju Chang: And you’re about five ten.

 

Sherry Ellis: Five eleven.

 

Juju Chang: I’m five eleven.

 

Sherry Ellis: Yeah.

 

Juju Chang: Daniel Holtzclaw’s, like, six two.

 

Sherry Ellis: Oh, see.  I still didn’t know that.

 

Juju Chang: I mean, that’s kind of a big difference, right?

 

Sherry Ellis: Yeah.  Well.  I really doesn’t—didn’t pay any attention.  I really didn’t.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host: Like the strobe lights excuse, this one doesn't make any sense either.  Ellis wasn't attacked suddenly from behind while walking in a dark alley.  By her own admission, Ellis spent at least ten minutes talking to the officer before even she claims anything inappropriate ever happened.  Are we to believe she never looked at him during this time?  Or when he was inside his patrol car running her name?  Oddly enough, she seemed to notice a lot of other things.  She noticed she was stopped next to a crepe myrtle tree.  She noticed the officer’s patrol car was the older black and white style. She noticed the officer pulled up her previous prostitution charge.  She even noticed the officer she never looked at was shorter than her.  She noticed the penis in her face was, as she described it, long.  But what she apparently didn't notice was that long penis was attached to a six foot two inch tall, pale white guy.  I don't mean to be so crude, but this ridiculousness resulted in a man being sentenced to life in prison and in my opinion, it's an insult to our criminal justice system.  And I'm not done with the inconsistencies. Ellis won't even be honest about how Detective Davis approached her.  

 

35:17

From page 2,998 of the jury trial transcript:

            Defense Attorney, Scott Adams – “And when they contacted you, they told you that         they were investigating a sexual assault on you by an Oklahoma City Police Officer?”

            Ellis - “No, they didn't say it like that. She said was there an incident that happened with      the police officer?” 

            Adams - “Did they tell you that they had a tip that you were assaulted by an Oklahoma           City police officer?” 

            Ellis - “I don't recall that.” 

 

Again, this is clearly how that conversation went.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Kim Davis: I have received a tip on—I been workin—I work in Sex Crimes and I been working some cases, and I received a tip that you may have been sexually assaulted by a police officer.

 

Sherry Ellis: Yes, I have.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host: In fact, that statement by Detective Davis isn't even true.  She hadn't received a tip at all, at least not by any definition you or I would probably use.  Ellis’ name simply appeared on an arbitrary list provided to her by Lieutenant Muzny.  A list that will later be denied to have ever existed.  And lastly, regarding how detective Davis came into contact with Ellis, and then I'll move on.  If you paid close attention to Ellis’ in person interview with Detective Davis, it was revealed that not only did Detective Davis tell Ellis she had a tip regarding her being sexually assaulted by a police officer, she also apparently told everyone she came into contact with while trying to locate Ellis, essentially contaminating any chance of getting a truly unrehearsed interview from Ellis.  Not to mention, she was disclosing extremely personal information to uninvolved parties.  Here's that clip again.

 

37:25[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Kim Davis: Did you have any idea when I call—when you found out I was looking for you?

 

Sherry Ellis: Mm… at first, no.  And then, um, Terry said this was something dealing with sexual, uh, sexual, and, I said well that’s the only thing it could be. Somebody done said something, told—said something about my name, or something like that, cause I know I didn’t say nothing, so… 

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host: Keep in mind, Detective Davis didn't even tell this highly sensitive information directly to Terry Mack, Senior.  She instead told it to his son, and he passed that information on to his father.  And what other information were these individuals exposed to?  The fact that Janie Liggons had already gone public with her allegations against Holtzclaw on the nightly news.  A reality that even Detective Davis and Gregory knew could have huge implications on the honesty of any accusers.  Once again, an outtake from Michelle Malkin's, Daniel in the Den documentary.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory: After it hit the media, we really had to be kinda protective as far as just absolutely even believing anything. We had to really kinda dissect, cause now it was out there.  Some people thought of money or just wanted the attention or however…

 

Det. Kim Davis: After they saw it on the TV, they were like, ‘Oh, I can get in on this.’

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host: Then there's the allegations that Holtzclaw took Ellis to the “abandoned school”.  While there is a closed and boarded up school on the property in question, it's also the location of a well maintained neighborhood park called Crested Hills Park, but I'm sure “abandoned school” sounds a lot more rapey, so that's what prosecutors and the media prefer to call it.

 

39:28

All we know for certain about this part of the allegations is that Holtzclaw did indeed drive eastbound on Northeast Eighteenth Street and does appear to leave the roadway.  He then continues to travel eastbound across the park property and then onto Miramar Boulevard, where he then goes north.  According to prosecutors, there is only one scenario to even consider: that Holtzclaw drove Ellis to behind the school building and raped her outside his marked patrol car. I'd argue that not only is there actually several different scenarios to consider, but that the one forwarded by prosecutors isn't even possible. The only direct evidence is Holtzclaw’s patrol car GPS, or AVL.  If you look at Holtzclaw’s GPS data, and I've posted a copy of it to this episode's homepage at holtzclawtrial.com, you see the following: the first ping on Northeast Eighteenth from North Highland Drive is at 1:13:41.  Holtzclaw’s patrol car is moving at fifteen knots, which is approximately seventeen miles per hour.  Five seconds later, the patrol car slows down to just below fourteen miles per hour. The patrol car continues to slow down, ten miles per hour, eight miles per hour, and then, finally, two miles per hour.  At that point there is an approximately four minute gap in the timeline. Unfortunately, patrol car GPS units do not record pings on anything except public roadways.  So we have no idea of knowing Holtzclaw’s exact route when he crossed the park.  We simply know that he went from west to east. However, there is still much to be gained from the GPS data that is available.  And it’s information that detectives and prosecutors either ignored or simply refused to consider.

 

41:34

At trial, Detective Davis admitted that Holtzclaw’s last ping on Northeast Eighteenth Street, was most likely his patrol car slowing down to hop the curb before entering park property. According to the prosecutor’s theory, Holtzclaw then negotiated around several obstacles in the park that would have prevented him from driving in a straight line, aided only in the darkness by his patrol cars headlights.  He then positioned his mark patrol car next to an outbuilding and a tree.  Detective Davis and prosecutors allege that Holtzclaw then exited his vehicle, ordered Ellis out of the backseat, instructed her to pull down her pants and bend over, and then vaginally raped her from behind. When finished, he allegedly told her to have a nice night, got back into his patrol car, and drove away.  All of that takes time.  And we already know the prosecution agrees that Holtzclaw’s vehicle is only unaccounted for for just less than four minutes.

 

This from pages 3,100 and 3,101 of the jury trial transcript:

            Prosecutor Gayland Gieger - “Were you able to look at this exhibit and tell me the time          difference between the last data point that we have him moving here and the next data          point that he shows up moving on Miramar?” 

            Detective Davis - “It was, like, I thought I wrote it down, almost four minutes.” 

            Gieger - “Is that consistent with your understanding of how the AVL works, is that if     you're driving through the field, it would still hit at a spot on the closest street, but if            you're not stopped for five minutes, you're not going to get a data point.” 

            Davis - “Right.” 

            Gieger - “Did that change in any way your belief as to whether or not it was possible   that Miss Ellis was telling you accurate information?” 

            Detective Davis - “It did not.” 

            Gieger - “Why not?” 

            Detective Davis - “Because four minutes is plenty of time to put your penis in someone's       vagina.”

 

43:48

Well, as crude as Detective Davis is, I’ll admit, four minutes is plenty of time to vaginally rape someone. However, keep in mind that Ellis herself said the rape lasted anywhere from five to ten minutes, an impossibility based on the GPS records.  Regardless, Detective Davis knows we are dealing with less than four minutes, three minutes and forty-nine seconds to be precise. And within that time, Holtzclaw has to park his car, exit his car, check for any witnesses, order Ellis out of the car and to pull down her pants, then vaginally rape her from behind, then put himself back together, and get in his car and accelerate away.  In fact, Holtzclaw’s defense attorney, Scott Adams, brings this up to Detective Davis at trial.

 

From pages 3,124 to 3,126 of the jury trial transcript: 

            Scott Adams - “And going two knots per hour, do you know how long it would take to go           from here to over to Miramar?” 

            Detective Kim Davis - “No, because I couldn't do that math, that math’s over my head.  I           could drive across the field in ten seconds.”

            Adams - “In ten seconds?”

            Detective Davis - “If I was driving a car, I could drive across that field in ten seconds.”

            Adams - “You can?  Ten seconds.  You can go five hundred and four feet in ten seconds           across the field at night.” 

            Detective Davis - “Yeah.” 

            Adams - “Did you try?  Okay.  Just tell the jury how many times you attempted.” 

            Detective Davis - “I didn't attempt it any times.” 

            Adams - “You didn't even measure it.” 

            Detective Davis - “No, I didn't.” 

            Adams - “Have you calculated at all how long it would take going two knots to go the direction you're saying Officer Holtzclaw to Miss Ellis?” 

            Detective Davis - “No, I wouldn't even know how to put that on a piece of paper and    calculate it.” 

            Adams - “Well, did you ask anyone?” 

            Detective Davis - “No.” 

            Adams - “Did you go to anyone in traffic accidents and ask them to calculate it?” 

            Detective Davis - “No.” 

 

46:09

It just so happens, we did those measurements, and we did bother to do the math. And therein lies the problem with the prosecution's theory.  Following the route that the prosecution says that Holtzclaw drove and negotiating the obstacles in the park, it's a minimum of five hundred and four feet and up to five hundred and fifteen feet.  Detective Kim Davis said she could have driven that route through the park in the dead of night, avoiding all obstacles, aided only by her vehicles headlights in only ten seconds.  And she could have, but she would have had to have been travelling a minimum of thirty-five miles per hour at all times.  The problem with that analogy, however, is that in that ten seconds, there would have been two, five second pings, and those two pings would have had to have registered speeds of thirty-five miles per hour or higher and that doesn't exist anywhere in the data.  Additionally, I'd argue that how fast one can drive across the park is only one of several problems with the prosecution's theory.  The one constant in the data is that Holtzclaw’s patrol car appears to be stopped for three minutes and forty-nine seconds. It's during that time the prosecution must insist the rape occurred.  So, the obvious next question becomes, how do you prove where Holtzclaw’s patrol car was parked during those crucial three minutes and forty-nine seconds?  And since neither Detective Davis nor Prosecutor Gayland Gieger bothered to do the math, they are simply taking Ellis' word for where Holtzclaw’s car was stopped. I'll remind you, that's the word of a woman who swears she was raped by a short black officer driving a different patrol car.  

 

48:18

I personally wasn't willing to take her word for it. So I did the math and applied the AVL or GPS parameters. Here's a quick patrol car GPS refresher. The vehicle is pinged for date, time, location and speed every five seconds if the ping results in a zero speed, then no data is recorded unless the zero speed continues for five minutes or more. In that case, a zero speed is recorded.  Otherwise, if the vehicle begins moving again after previously being at a stop for less than five minutes, then you will get a gap in the GPS history that begins again with the vehicles movement.  That's what we have in this case, a gap, three minutes and forty-nine seconds.  If the vehicle doesn't move, then you get a zero speed every five minutes until it moves again.  That being the case, and the reality that the gap in time is only three minutes and forty-nine seconds, not the required five minutes for a zero speed, then that means in the prosecution's own theory, Holtzclaw’s patrol car had to have come to a complete stop before the next five second ping after slowing down to two miles per hour and hopping the curb.  I know this gets confusing, but try to stay with me here. If indeed Holtzclaw’s patrol car hops the curb at 1:14:28, then we know exactly where his car is at that time.  His car should be pinged by the GPS five seconds later.  If he's moving, then the GPS will record a time and speed.  However, his location will simply snap to the nearest public street.  If his patrol car is not moving, then the GPS will continue to ping his patrol car, but only register a time and speed if it begins moving again, or if the patrol car is still parked five minutes later.

 

50:42

So, even in a light most favourable to the state, Holtzclaw’s patrol car came to a complete stop within 4.9 seconds of the 1:14:28 ping at the curb line.  Even if you double Holtzclaw’s known speed of just two miles per hour to five miles per hour, he could have only travelled thrity-six feet before his patrol car would have been pinged again. And when it was pinged, he was at a dead stop and he didn't start moving again for three minutes and forty-nine seconds. Thirty-six feet, the maximum distance Holtzclaw could have realistically travelled after his last known ping before the alleged rape, is only just barely on depart property. Completely out in the open and nowhere near the three hundred fifty-eight feet the prosecution argues Holtzclaw drove to conceal his vehicle behind the school and next to the outbuilding. For the prosecution's theory to be true, Holtzclaw would had to have had instantly accelerated to sixty-five miles per hour to cover that distance and parked before his patrol car was pinged again, at night, off road, in a park with multiple obstacles and aided only by one's own headlights.  I've posted a map on this episode's homepage that shows these measurements and graphically shows the problem of the prosecution's theory.  Now that we know that Holtzclaw’s vehicle could not have been where the prosecution wants everyone to believe that it was and where Ellis swore under oath that it was parked.  The next question becomes, what was Holtzclaw doing for three minutes and forty-nine seconds while his vehicle wasn't moving, and he allegedly had Ellis with him, but he's much closer to the curb line within the park?  I'd argue, like in the Terry Morris case, and as admitted by Holtzclaw during his interrogation, that he was most likely simply transporting Ellis while trying to get additional information from her regarding the criminal element in the neighborhood. I can certainly imagine a scenario where Ellis was fearful that others in the neighborhood had seen her talking to a police officer on Highland drive for some fifteen minutes and would assume she was snitching if the officer simply let her go.  So, she could have very well asked or Holtzclaw could have very well offered to drive her around the corner and let her out at the public park where she could walk off in any direction and avoid being witnessed by others in the neighborhood.  In fact, this very scenario was brought up at trial in this exchange with Detective Kim Davis and she even admits that it's very possible.

 

53:48

From page 3,130 of the jury trial transcript: 

            Defense Attorney, Scott Adams - “So, it is possible, is it not, that Officer Holtzclaw simply       drove through this area, got no information, let her out of the vehicle, and headed back      over to Miramar and did all that travelling, the five hundred three feet in less than four       minutes as opposed to having a sexual encounter to the point of ejaculation with        someone behind the building? Correct?”

            Detective Davis - “The way you're putting it? Yes.” 

 

That said, this and any scenario where Holtzclaw transports a female does raise a couple of minor red flags.  Records indicate that Holtzclaw did not call in a ten fourteen.  That's law enforcement lingo for a ten code for transporting a civilian.  Policy would dictate that an officer should call in a ten fourteen and give their starting and ending mileage.  Additionally, Holtzclaw’s daily activity card did not show his contact with Ellis.  This brings up another option that is one hundred percent supported by the evidence, that Holtzclaw never transported Ellis at all.  Instead, after spending approximately fifteen minutes with Ellis on North Highland Drive, Holtzclaw simply drove north, a little less than two hundred feet, turned eastbound onto Northeast Eighteenth Street, and then proceeded down to the park where he jumped the curb and came to a stop approximately thirty-six feet beyond the curb line.  This would have put Holtzclaw very near the only playground equipment in the park, and where any young adults who are homeless on the property would be loitering.  It would have been perfectly within reason that Holtzclaw would have parked his vehicle, shined his lights on the individuals on the playground equipment, inquired as to what they were up to, and then sent them on their way after pointing out that the park is closed to the public at that time of night.  A scenario like that could easily account for the three minutes and forty-nine seconds that Holtzclaw’s vehicle was stopped.  And once again, the cluster of pings starting at 1:18:17, backs this scenario up, as it would have taken Holtzclaw approximately twenty-four seconds to drive from that point straight across the park at ten miles per hour.  Additionally, Ellis could have easily seen Holtzclaw at the end of the street or driving through the park as she continued northbound on Highland Drive.  It would have only taken her less than two minutes to reach the corner of Highland and Eighteenth while on foot.

 

56:44

There's another consideration that the patrol car GPS is not to be trusted at all in any scenario and shouldn't be used as such damning evidence in any criminal trial.  I've posted the GPS data that corresponds with this episode on holtzclawtrial.com, and I've highlighted each time the data doesn't match the GPS parameters.  I'll be pointing out the prosecution's own admissions at trial that the Oklahoma City Police Department’s AVL system is “glitchy and unreliable” in future episodes.  All of that said, there's yet at least one more possibility that many Holtzclaw supporters point to and it has to do with Ellis’s description of her attacker as being a short black male police officer.  Guess what?  There was a Spring Lake Lieutenant working patrol that night that could best be described as both short and black.  Furthermore, his patrol area was only fifteen hundred feet from where Ellis claims she was raped.  His name is Alexander Edwards.  You may be saying to yourself, so what?  Other than being short and black, there must obviously be nothing that ties this high ranking officer to Ellis' allegations. Well, there wasn't at this point in the investigation, September 5, 2014. But in October of 2016, well after Holtzclaw was convicted, something does happen that put Edwards back on many Holtzclaw supporters radar. He was busted in a federal anti-human trafficking sting.  Not just for engaging in prostitution as a customer, but also for warning prostitutes about law enforcement activities. There will be more about disgraced former Oklahoma City Police Lieutenant Alex Edwards when we get to Holtzclaw’s criminal trial. And when we talk about the trial and conviction of Daniel Holtzclaw in future episodes, you may be very surprised how the facts presented in Ellis' allegations were received and the verdict rendered by the jury.  In closing, just a quick summary of the facts: From the prosecution's perspective, accuser, Sherry Ellis spent twenty minutes with a police officer, never more than ten feet from his side.  She, without hesitation, described him as a short, dark skinned, black male driving an older model black and white patrol car.  She says this officer vaginally raped her at a place nearly four hundred feet from the last spot his patrol car GPS recorded his location and speed.

 

59:08

Now from the Defense’s perspective: the Defendant, Daniel Holtzclaw, is six foot two inches tall and pale in complexion. He also drives the more rare newer model all black patrol car.  His patrol car is equipped with a GPS system that records his location and speed.  According to that independent system, it would have been impossible for his car to have been located where the accuser claims it was.  With all that in mind, ask yourself this… how did Oklahoma City Police Sex Crimes Detective Kim Davis get away with saying this to the Oklahoman newspaper? 

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Kim Davis: We’ll take our time and we’ll verify everything the girls say, or we’ll verify everything he said.  And the—and, and that’s the way the chips are gonna fall. And everything the girls said verified, and nothing he said did. [laugh]

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host: I'm going to stop here.  This has been a long and tedious episode.  I hope I was able to break it down so that you can better understand its complexity. In the next episode, investigators interview, a former weightlifting teammate and lover of Holtzclaw.  They also interview fifty-three year old accuser, Florine Mathis from her jail cell, where she is accused of Assault and Battery with a Deadly Weapon.  She also has priors for assaulting police officers.  You will hear her police interview and allegations for the very first time.  And with that, I truly appreciate you taking the time to hear the details of this case, as presented by me, Brian Bates, where I break down the case of the State of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw from the perspective of the prosecution, but with the scrutiny of the defense.

 

1:01:02

 - END -

EPISODE 10

Bates Investigates

Episode 10 ׀Daniel Holtzclaw: Florene Mathis Allegations

 

[OPENING MUSIC]

 

Disclaimer: This podcast deals with adult subject matter, including depictions of drug addiction, prostitution, sexual assault, and rape.  Parental guidance is suggested.

 

00:37[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE]

 

Newscaster: Officer Daniel Holtzclaw, with the Police Department for three years, is accused of raping and sexually assaulting women he pulled over while on the job.

 

Jannie Liggons: He said, ‘Come on, come on, just a minute, just a minute’.  I say, ‘Sir, I can’t do this’.  I say, ‘you gonna shoot...’

 

Det. Kim Davis: Tell me your description of him.

 

Sherri Ellis: He’s black.

 

Det. Kim Davis: He’s b—okay, black male.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What did your daughter tell you?

 

Amanda Gates: She said, ‘I met this really hot cop’.

 

Shardayreon Hill: So, this is good evidence?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Well, you tell me.

 

[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE ENDS]

 

Timestamp: The following episode contains investigative events which occurred on August 13, 2014.

 

01:25

Host: Welcome back to Bates Investigates - Season One - episode ten.  I am your host, licensed Private Investigator, Brian Bates, and I am breaking down the case of the State of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw.  As a member of Daniel Holtzclaw’s jury trial criminal defense team, I am presenting this serialized podcast from the perspective of the prosecution, but with the scrutiny of the defense.  In the investigative timeline, it’s August 13, 2014, and Detective Rocky Gregory is pouring over a stack of papers detailing everyone Officer Daniel Holtzclaw had run through the police department’s databases in the last few months.  You’ll recall, it was in episode nine that accuser Sherry Ellis’ name stood out because she had been run through the Varuna databases numerous times over the course of three shifts.  On this morning, another name stands out.  Just a quick side note, because this person ends up having very little significance to this case, I’m only going to refer to her as Shannon—which is not her real name.  According to the printouts, Holtzclaw ran Shannon’s name multiple times.  Detective Gregory utilized the same law enforcement databases to obtain a telephone number and personal identifying information for Shannon and gave her a call.  The following information comes directly from Detective Gregory’s official investigative police report.  The first thing that stood out to me when I read this report was that the telephone call with Shannon was allegedly not audio recorded.  Yet, when Ellis was identified as a possible victim of Daniel Holtzclaw’s because of the same suspicious name inquiries, her initial telephone contact was audio recorded.  

 

3:24

Additionally, according to Detective Gregory’s report, he started the telephone conversation with Shannon, by stating, “I introduced myself and I asked [Shannon] if she had ever had any problems with an officer.”  You’ll recall that when Sherry Ellis was contacted, she was told that police had a tip that she had been sexually assaulted by an Oklahoma City Police officer—a statement so inappropriate that even she denied it at trial.  Both women were flagged because they had been queried by Holtzclaw multiple times, yet only one was recorded, and that same woman was the only one told up front that police believed she was the victim of a sexual assault by a police officer.  The only difference I could find is the fact that thirty-nine year old Ellis is a black female with a criminal history who resided on the Northeast side of Oklahoma City.  While Shannon, the one who wasn’t recorded and wasn’t told they thought she’d been sexually assaulted, was a twenty-three year old white, female, professional bikini fitness model, who resided in Edmond, an upscale suburb of Oklahoma City.  Regardless, Shannon responded to Detective Gregory’s question with, “She said she really hadn’t, but her friend, Daniel Holtzclaw, is in trouble for supposedly messing with girls.”  She went on to say that she didn’t know any details about the allegations, but that she met Holtzclaw because they were both on the same body building team at a gym in Northwest Oklahoma City.  Shannon explained to Detective Gregory that she dated Holtzclaw in January and February of 2014.  She said it was a physical relationship and that she considered Holtzclaw’s sex drive to be pretty normal and that they had sex about every other day.  Shannon was specifically asked if they used condoms, or if Holtzclaw ever asked for anything unusual during sex, or made her uncomfortable.  She replied that they did not use condoms, and that she never had any issues with Holtzclaw. 

 

5:35

Shannon went on to state that she has no problem with Holtzclaw and that they still compete on the same body building team.  However, when asked, Shannon did verify that she has never had any contact with Holtzclaw as a police officer and that he had no official purpose to run her information through the police department’s databases. Shannon ended the call by giving the name of another female fitness model on their team that had had a longer dating relationship with Holtzclaw.  I couldn’t find any information that Detective Gregory or Davis contacted that individual.  I’m not going to dwell on this because its significance is very debatable, but a handful of Holtzclaw’s past girlfriends were contacted during this investigation, and Holtzclaw definitely had a type.  All were extremely attractive, very into working out, and took that passion to a higher level by either competing and/or working as fitness models. Holtzclaw also dated women of different ethnicities.  When interview by investigators, none had anything negative to say about him. Regardless, while Detective Gregory was seeking out bikini models to interview, Detective Kim Davis began her day and her next investigative report with the same opening line she would use time and time again: “Lieutenant Muzny gave me a list of several females that he wanted contacted because they could be possible victims of Officer Holtzclaw. When he gave me the list, we had still not found a match to the unidentified female DNA found on Officer Holtzclaw’s pants.”  One of the names on that list was fifty-three year old, Florene Mathis.  When Detective Davis searched the police database, she learned that Mathis was currently being held in the Oklahoma County Jail on a charge of Assault and Battery with a Dangerous Weapon.  Detective Davis and Homan drove to the Oklahoma County Jail, had Florene Mathis pulled from her cell, and then escorted to an interview room. The following is the audio from that interview.

 

07:49[RECORDING BEGINS]

[VOICES IN BACKGROUND]

 

Host: This original interview is about twenty-five minutes long.  The audio is fairly poor and Mathis’ answers are often not audible.  For those reasons, I have edited this audio for time and quality.  You can watch and listen to the unedited video at this episode’s homepage on holtclawtrial.com, or on the Bates Investigates YouTube channel for season one.

 

Det. Kim Davis: I’m Detective Davis.  Kim Davis.  My partner, Detective Homan.  We… how come you’re in here?  Just out of curiosity.

 

Florene Mathis: For Assault and Battery with, uh, a Dangerous Weapon.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Oh, did you kick somebody’s ass? [laughing] Okay, here’s—we’re not here about that.  We’re not working that case or anything.  Uh, we received a—we work in Sex Crimes, okay?  And we received a tip, we’re in the middle of an investigation and during that investigation a tip came across that you may have been sexually assaulted by an Oklahoma City Police officer.  [long pause]  Get a chair. Do you want a Kleenex?  [loud bang]

 

Florene Mathis: I don’t even remember what day it was.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Doesn’t matter.  [long pause]  We’d like to talk to you about that.  And we’ll take as much time as you need.  I’m gonna take some notes, if you don’t care.  Do you remember—can I ask some questions?  Are you ready?  Do you remember what month it was?

 

Florene Mathis: No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  I—I’m gonna ask you a question and I don’t mean this in a bad way, and I’m not judging or anything… were you, like, were you on drugs that day? Okay.  That—that’s fine.  What were you, what were you using that day?

 

Florene Mathis: Crack.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.

 

Florene Mathis: [inaudible] had been drinking, so I couldn’t…

 

09:50

Det. Valari Homan: What side of town?

 

Florene Mathis: Uh, the East side.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do you remember, like, were you driving or were you walking?  How did you come in contact with him?

 

Florene Mathis: I was walking.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do you remember where—what street you were walking on?

 

Florene Mathis: Uh, I don’t know.  I had just left, like, Sixteenth and Jordan.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay, and where did you get stopped?

 

Florene Mathis: Uh, like, Seventeenth or Eighteenth, and, like, Kate.  Over—it was close to a park.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What time of day was it?

 

Florene Mathis: It was, like, six or seven in the evening.

 

Det. Kim Davis: In the evening.  Okay, tell me this—it will help me time of year—was it dark or was it still light?

 

Florene Mathis: It was kinda dark.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What were you wearing, to tell me the weather?

 

Florene Mathis: Uh, I know I had on some jeans.  I had on some black jeans.  And, I can’t remember what—I know I had on, like, uh, a tank top, with a jacket on.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What kind of jacket?  Like a coat?  Or like a…

 

Florene Mathis: It was, like, a…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Sweatshirt type of jacket or something else?

 

Florene Mathis: It was one of the, uh, flannel hoodies jackets.

 

11:05

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Tell me a little bit. T—y—you tell me, you left Sixteenth and Jordan. Is that where you were smoking and drinking?  Okay. And you start walking.  Were you walking alone?

 

Florene Mathis: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Tell me how you got approached.

 

Florene Mathis: Um…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did he come from behind you, from the side of you, or from directly straight on?

 

Florene Mathis: It was from behind me.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.

 

Florene Mathis: He stopped to ask me if I had ID.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did he get out of the car to ask you that?

 

Florene Mathis: Yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Tell me wh—what happened next?

 

Florene Mathis: He ran a check and I came back clear.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did he run a check over the radio or over his computer or do you know?

 

Florene Mathis: I don’t know.  I don’t remember.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Now, when he’s running you are you standing outside of the car?  Are you sitting in the car?

 

Florene Mathis: He had me sitting on the curb.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did he get back into the car to run you?

 

Florene Mathis: Yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Are you on his driver’s side or passenger’s side…

 

Florene Mathis: Passenger side.

 

Det. Kim Davis: When you’re sitting on the ca—curb? Then what happened.

 

Florene Mathis: And he started asking me about other girls that was, uh, working girls and stuff that was around through that area. If I knew any of them, and, um…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did he call them working girls?

 

Florene Mathis: No, he just, he said, ‘Are there any,’ uh…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Was he out of the car?

 

Florene Mathis: He more or less pertained it like I was out there working and I told him I wasn’t, I was on my way home.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Was he out of the car when he was doing this?

 

Florene Mathis: Yes.  I said…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Have you ever been a working girl before?

 

Florene Mathis: Years ago.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Go ahead.

 

Florene Mathis: And, uh, I told him I didn’t know what he was talking about and he said something about with me always being in that area that I knew what was going on and stuff like that with the dope houses and the working girls.

 

Det. Valari Homan: Where’s he standing?  Or sitting?

 

Florene Mathis: He’s standing right in front of me.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So you guys are kind of face to face like this while you’re having this conversation?

 

Det. Valari Homan: But you’re still in the backseat of the patrol car?

 

13:20

Florene Mathis: No, I was outside of the car.  I was sitting on the curb.

 

Det. Valari Homan: Oh, okay.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Go ahead.

 

Florene Mathis: Um.

 

Det. Kim Davis: He’s telling you that he kno—you should know the area and the working girls and the dope houses.

 

Florene Mathis: Yeah.  And I told him I didn’t know what he was talking about.  And, and he was, like, ‘Well, if I sear—have a female officer come search you, would you have anything on you illegal?’  And stuff.  And I told him no.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Was that the truth?

 

Florene Mathis: Yes.  I remember him telling me, um, telling me I could get up.  When I got up, he was trying to help me.  I told him I could get up by myself.

 

Det. Kim Davis: How was he trying to help?

 

Florene Mathis: Reach out to pull my hand to pull me up. And I snatched my hand back cause I’ve had surgery on my left hand. Um…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did he ever touch your left hand?

 

Florene Mathis: Yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did it hurt?

 

Florene Mathis: Yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did he touch it too hard or just did it hurt…

 

Florene Mathis: [inaudible]

 

Det. Kim Davis:  Cause you had surgery?

 

Florene Mathis: Cause I had had surgery.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So, now you’re standing.  Was this whole conversation before that you were sitting and he was standing?

 

Florene Mathis: Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So, now you’re both standing and facing each other.

 

Florene Mathis: Yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.

 

Florene Mathis: The only thing else I can remember is him trying to fondle my breasts.

 

Det. Valari Homan: When during the contact did that happen?

 

Florene Mathis: After I had stood up.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Are ya’ll, like, still on the curb area or are you in front of the scout car or…

 

Florene Mathis: I was sitting on the curb and I get up and he’s right here leaning up toward this passenger door.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did he just reach out and fondle or was he searching you or did he just reach out and grab you?

 

Florene Mathis: [whispered] I don’t remember.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Is that because you were high?  Now, when you say you remember him trying to fondle your breasts, did he ever touch em?  On top of your clothes or underneath your clothes?

 

15:22

Florene Mathis: Top.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Do you remember what made him stop?

 

Florene Mathis: Um, a car, or somebody came out of their house, or something.  Um…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did he say anything when he touched your breasts?

 

Florene Mathis: No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you say anything?

 

Florene Mathis: I just told him to let me go.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What’d he say when you told him that?

 

Florene Mathis: I just remember walking across the park.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Is that kinda by your house?

 

Florene Mathis: Yes, in the opposite direction.

 

Det. Valari Homan: Where you live?

 

Florene Mathis: I was staying on Eighteenth and Everest at the time.

 

Det. Kim Davis: S—Eighteenth and what?

 

Florene Mathis: Everest.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Where do you live now?

 

Florene Mathis: Nowhere. [laughing]

 

Det. Kim Davis: You don’t have an addr—have they filed charges on you?  In he—like, w—where you going when you get out of here, are you going to prison?

 

Florene Mathis: I don’t know.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  But you don’t…

 

Florene Mathis: I’m waiting to go to trial.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Hmm?

 

Florene Mathis: I’m waiting to go to trial.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did he ever try to touch your vagina or your bottom?

 

Florene Mathis: Unh uh.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did he ever try to get you touch him?

 

Florene Mathis: [sob] I don’t remember.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  That’s okay.  Did—when you walked across the park, did he just drive away?  From that point on to—when did you get arrested and come in here?

 

Florene Mathis: Um, on the eighth.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Of what?

 

Florene Mathis: Januar—uh, July.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  Between the time that he did this and July 8thhave you seen him again?

 

Florene Mathis: Not that I remember.

 

Det. Kim Davis: You never saw him again?

 

Det. Valari Homan: How much time had passed do you think from the time this happened to when you got picked up and brought in here?

 

Florene Mathis: I don’t remember.  I’ve been trying to keep it blocked out.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Give me a description of him. White male, black male, Indian male, Mexican male?

 

Florene Mathis: He could have been His—part Hispanic and white, I don’t…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay. [banging noises]

 

17:37

Florene Mathis: I know he was real muscular. 

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did you notice a name tag? Okay.  How tall was he?  And you don’t have to be perfect, just kinda…

 

Florene Mathis: Bout… probably about five ten.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  How much did he weigh?

 

Florene Mathis: Bout… probably about two something.  

 

Det. Kim Davis: And when you say real muscular, like, work-out muscular or just a big guy?

 

Florene Mathis: Muscular.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Muscular, okay.  Um, did he wear glasses?  Did he have facial hair?

 

Florene Mathis: No, he didn’t have facial hair.

 

Det. Kim Davis: If you, um, saw him again could you pick him out of—like, if I showed you six pictures of police officers would you be able to pick him out?

 

Florene Mathis: [inaudible]

 

Det. Kim Davis: When he stopped you did he turn his lights—the overhead lights on or anything?

 

Florene Mathis: Yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: He did?  Were they on the whole time ya’ll were talking?

 

Florene Mathis: No. 

 

Det. Kim Davis: D—did he turn em off when he was running you?  Anything else you can think about?  What color was his hair?

 

Florene Mathis: Uh, it’s either dark brown or black. Had, like, a little slight gray.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Can you think of anything else about him that describes him?

 

Florene Mathis: Just, uh, the new—the police car was one of the new ones.

 

Det. Kim Davis: The…

 

Florene Mathis: The new black and whites?

 

Det. Kim Davis: Like, where it’s all black except the letters?

 

Florene Mathis: Yeah.

 

Det. Valari Homan: Had you ever seen him before this time?

 

Florene Mathis: Yeah, he stopped me before, when I was working.

 

Det. Kim Davis: As a prostitute?

 

Florene Mathis: No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Working what?  What do you mean?

 

Florene Mathis: I was doing Make Ready on Sixteenth and Jordan.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What’s Make Ready?

 

Florene Mathis: It’s, uh, remodeling.

 

Det. Valari Homan: How long before this contact was that contact?

 

Florene Mathis: I don’t know.  Back in like, it was around March or April.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Of 2014? 

 

Det. Valari Homan: Is that…

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did he run you that time?  Did he do anything to you that time?  So, the time that he touched your breasts was after March or April of 2014.

 

19:53

Det. Valari Homan: What about—anything before that time?

 

Florene Mathis: I think there was another time that he had stopped me around probably December or January.  And that was, like, on Eighteenth.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Eighteenth and what?

 

Florene Mathis: Um, right around Fonshill.  I mean, not F—Fonshill, uh, Stonewall.  [inaudible]

 

Det. Kim Davis: Did he run you that time?

 

Florene Mathis: Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Are all these times, are you on foot?

 

Florene Mathis: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Valari Homan: Starting—so is this gonna be the first time you’ve ever come in contact with him?

 

Florene Mathis: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Valari Homan: So, from that time to the last time was it ever discussed about hey I see you around or anything?

 

Florene Mathis: Unh uh.

 

Det. Kim Davis: And he ran you that time—the first time, and the second time, and the third time you and you came back clear every time?

 

Florene Mathis: Well the, uh, one time—the last two times, I had warrants and he told me to take care of them.  And I was taking—trying to take care of them, paying a, a little money at a time.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So, the second and third time, and the third time being the time he touched your breasts, you had warrants?

 

Florene Mathis: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Kim Davis: What were the warrants for?

 

Florene Mathis: Uh, they were, uh, City warrants.  Uh, Failure to Appear, and, uh, not paying my, uh, tickets.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Failure to Appear and not paying tickets.  And he just told you take care of them.

 

Florene Mathis: Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: But only one time he did something to you?  You didn’t tell anybody?

 

Florene Mathis: No.

 

Det. Kim Davis: How come?

 

Florene Mathis: I didn’t really have anybody to tell.

 

Det. Kim Davis: W—why didn’t—cause this will get asked, how come you didn’t tell the police?

 

Florene Mathis: I just tried to forget about it.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.  And that’s fine.  Any of these times, one, two, or three, did he ever search you and put you in the back of the car?

 

21:56

Florene Mathis: There was one time he put me in the back of the car and I think that was the first time he stopped me.  Cause he had, uh, a female come up and, uh, search me.

 

Det. Kim Davis: So, the second and third time, he didn’t put you in the back of the car?  And he didn’t search you?  Okay.

 

Det. Valari Homan: How old are you?

 

Florene Mathis: Fifty-three.

 

Det. Valari Homan: There’s gonna be a lot of questions asked—it—cause we have to answer some to the District Attorney’s office, and you—you’re very young looking and you—you’ve got a great memory, that’s obvious, cause all the information that you’ve given us.  Did you give us everything?

 

Florene Mathis: That I can remember, yes.

 

Det. Kim Davis: That night, did you—would you classify yourself, were you drunk?

 

Florene Mathis: Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Were you high?

 

Florene Mathis: Yeah.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.

 

Florene Mathis: I had been smoking crack and drinking.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Okay.

 

Det. Valari Homan: Does it cause you to ever black out though?

 

Florene Mathis: Yes.

 

Det. Valari Homan: Or hallucinate?

 

Florene Mathis: No, not to hallucinate.  I black out.

 

Det. Valari Homan: Well, we’re very sorry for, um, something you’ve come up against.

 

Det. Kim Davis: It’s…

 

Det. Valari Homan: And we’re gonna…

 

Det. Kim Davis: It’s embarrassing for us that we have to come ask you these questions and tell you when a police officer did that you.  We’re—we’re embarrassed.  Cause we’re police officers.  But I don’t want you to think that, I mean, a lot of people say brothers in blue, if he’s out there doing that, unh uh.  It’s not right.  It’s not appropriate.  It’s against the law.  And we won’t put up with it.  And we want you to know that we won’t put up with it.  [pause] Do you know anybody else that this—I know you didn’t tell me, but it—have you heard, out on the street or anything of an officer assaulting women? [pause]  Haven’t heard anybody say anything else about it?  [pause] Do you have any questions?

 

Florene Mathis: Unh uh.

 

Det. Kim Davis: Something’s gonna be done about this, okay?  We’re not gonna put up with it.

 

[RECORDING ENDS]

24:08

Host: The edited video you just listened to is posted in its entirety on this episode’s homepage at holtzclawtrial.com.  You can also find a link to the video in this episode’s show notes by swiping or tapping on the cover art displayed on your smart device.  Honestly, at first glance, there’s not a lot to this interview.  I do, however, want to point out that Detective Davis takes some liberties when she claims in her official investigative report, that when she asked Mathis if she was ever sexually assaulted by a police officer, Mathis “immediately dropped her head and started crying”.  You can watch the video for yourself.  There is zero evidence that Mathis is doing anything other than lowering her head and pausing as she gathers her thoughts.  There are no audible sobs, nor shedding or wiping of tears.  Regardless, Florene Mathis, who is known to go by numerous aliases, claims that while she was out walking and under the influence of crack cocaine and alcohol, she came into contact with Patrol Officer Daniel Holtzclaw.  She claims this was the third time that he had stopped her, and that during one encounter there was also a female officer on scene. For most of the contact in question, Mathis says she was seated on the curb and that Holtzclaw was outside his patrol car standing next to her.  Mathis claims that nothing inappropriate occurred until she went to stand up.  At that point, Officer Holtzclaw offered his hand to help her.  Mathis said she had previously had surgery on her left hand and that Holtzclaw’s grip caused her some pain, so she pulled her hand away and said she could get up on her own. Mathis is fairly vague on what happened next, but generalized that Hotlzclaw briefly fondled her breasts on top of her clothes as she got up off the curb.  She claims that he stopped because either a car drove by or someone came out of her house—she can’t remember which.  Mathis said the interaction with Holtzclaw ended about that time, and she simply walked away.  She stated that since that encounter she hasn’t told anyone and simply was trying to put it behind her.

 

26:28

While some may be tempted to dismiss this incident as nothing more than a she said, he said, there are a handful of details worth mentioning that, in my opinion, should have caused Detectives Davis and Homan concern as to the truthfulness of Florene Mathis.  So, let’s take a closer look at her allegations.  For starters, Mathis says she has had contact with Holtzclaw on three separate occasions.  The first contact was allegedly in December of 2013 or January of 2014 near Northeast Eighteenth and Stonewall.  This would have been very near Florene Mathis’ sister’s home.  Mathis gave a detailed account of how Holtzclaw had called a female officer to come to the scene to perform a search upon her.  At that point, she said that she admitted to the female officer that she had a crack pipe on her and that the officer took the crack pipe and smashed it on the ground.  Further investigation by Detective Davis revealed that Mathis was either mistaken or outright lying.  While a stop did occur in that area and in that general time frame, Holtzclaw was not the male officer involved.  The male officer was identified in court testimony as Officer Jones. More importantly though, there was no evidence that a female officer was ever involved in that stop.  Mathis said her second contact with Holtzclaw was near Northeast Sixteenth and Jordan and was either in March or April of 2014. Detective Davis researched this alleged contact and did verify that Holtzclaw did stop Mathis on March 25thof 2014.  The following is the radio traffic from that stop.

 

28:21

[RECORDING BEGINS]

[DING]

Computer: Tuesday, March, Twenty-Five, Two Thousand Fourteen, Sixteen Fifty-One and Thirty-Four Seconds

 

Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: Two Charlie Forty-Five [inaudible]

 

Dispatcher: [inaudible] number and go ahead

 

Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: Two Charlie 45, got one to run [inaudible] uh…

 

[DING]

Computer: Tuesday, March, Twenty-Five, Two Thousand Fourteen, Sixteen Fifty-Two and Zero Seconds

 

Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: I got two to—one to run, goes by two aliases, uh, first last name is gonna be Mathis. That’s Mary-Adam-Tom-Henry-Ida-Sam. First name’s gonna be Florence.  

 

[DING]

Computer: Sixteen Fifty-Two and Twenty Seconds

 

Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: That’s Frank-Lincoln-Ocean-Robert-Edward-Nora-Charles-Edward.  Date of birth [redacted], black female.  Also goes by the last name of Gibson, first name of Lynn.

 

Dispatcher: Can you spell Gibson and Lynn?

 

[DING]

Computer: Sixteen Fifty-Two and Forty Seconds

 

Dispatcher: And is it still the same date of birth?

 

Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: Ten four, same date of birth.  Last name, uh, Gibson.  It’s George-Ida-Baker-Sam-Ocean-Nora.  First name is Lynn.  Lincoln-Young-Nora-Nora.

 

Dispatcher: Ten four.

 

[DING]

Computer: Sixteen Fifty-Six and Twenty Seconds

 

Dispatcher: Charlie Forty-Five, um, she has two City IEWs under Mathis.  David-Henry-One, Paul-Sam-Three.  Clear under Gibson, Lynn.  

 

Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: All right, ten four.

 

[RECORDING ENDS]

29:39

Host: This stop occurred near Northeast Fifteenth and Jordan.  Mathis did have City warrants for her arrest, but Holtzclaw did not ticket her or did not take her to jail.  Mathis claims nothing inappropriate occurred during this stop.  As for the third encounter detailed by Mathis, the one involving the sexual assault… well, that one’s a bit more complicated.  Detective Davis was able to verify that Holtzclaw did indeed come into contact with Mathis on April 14, 2014 at about 6:30 p.m. The following is the radio traffic from that stop.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: Forty-Five, I’m at Fifteenth and Jordan processing, Fifteenth and Jordan, I’m good.

 

[DING]

Computer: Monday, April, Fourteen, Two Thousand Fourteen, Eighteen Forty and Forty-Eight Seconds

 

Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: Two Charlie Forty-Five. I got one to run, uh, last name of Gibson. George-Ida-Baker-Sam-Ocean-Nora. First name of Lynn. Lincoln-Young-Nora-Nora.

 

[DING]

Computer: Monday, April, Fourteen, Two Thousand Fourteen, Eighteen Forty-one and Zero Seconds

 

Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: Other alias name of Florence Mathis. Uh, the social, a social of four-four-zero [redacted]. Uh, she gave me a date of birth of [redacted], black male, black female.  

 

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host: As the two sound bites of police radio traffic point out, despite what the prosecution and the media would like you to believe, patrol car GPS was not necessary to pin point the dates and locations of Holtzclaw’s encounters.  He literally called them in with no attempt to hide his activities.  Holtzclaw’s radio traffic was then compared to his patrol car GPS for confirmation.  The third encounter though, the one allegedly involving the groping of Mathis’ breasts, does have some significant contradictory details.  Mathis said she had left a residence at Northeast Sixteenth and Jordan where she had been drinking alcohol and smoking crack cocaine all day.  She claims she was on foot, headed to her sister’s house, and had made it either Northeast Seventeenth or Northeast Eighteenth Street and North Kate Avenue. That’s when Officer Holtzclaw approached her in his patrol car from behind.  Right there is a huge discrepancy and Detective Davis and Homan know it.

 

32:02

According to Holtzclaw’s radio traffic and patrol car GPS. Holtzclaw actually stopped Mathis near Northeast Fifteenth and Jordan, or only about a block away from the crack house she said she had just left.  That’s a huge difference of nearly half a mile.  Furthermore, Mathis claims that she was headed west towards her sister’s home, which would have only been a couple of blocks from where she claims she was stopped by Holtzclaw.  Yet, she says when the stop was over, and just after Holtzclaw had fondled her breasts, she walked in the opposite direction of her sister’s residence to a park that was in the immediate area.  She then turned around and headed back to her sister’s home.  Well, if you bring this all up on a map, and I have one published to this episode’s home page at holtzclawtrial.com, there is no park in the immediate area of the Northeast Fifteenth and North Jordan Avenue stop that we know took place with Officer Holtzclaw.  But there is the Riley Leroy Pitts Park on the corners of both Northeast Seventeenth and Eighteenth Streets and North Kate Avenue. And that park is directly in the opposite direction of where she was headed, just as she described.  However, GPS records don’t show that Holtzclaw ever made a stop in the area she is insisting it happened on Seventeenth or Eighteenth Street just off Kate Avenue and next to a park.  This is a huge discrepancy.  With the misidentification from the first stop involving an alleged female officer that never actually happened, and now details of the most recent stop that match her description of a location but not the location where Holtzclaw actually encountered her, this leaves open the very real possibility the event in which she was sexually assaulted actually involved a completely different police officer, if the sexual assault actually ever occurred at all. 

 

34:14

I feel it’s important to point out, that Mathis testified during the trial that she estimates that she has been arrested some thirty times by different police officers and has a lengthy criminal record that includes time spent in prison.  Which brings up another concern I have: Mathis states that Holtzclaw tried to help her up and he inadvertently hurt her hand and then intentionally fondled her breasts.  According to her, she just stood there too scared to say or do anything.  While I’d accept that as the truth from many people, I have my doubts when it comes to Florene Mathis.  She may be fifty-three years old, but she is anything but meek or timid.  You’ll recall she was in jail for Assault and Battery with a Dangerous Weapon when detectives first met with her.  At trial it was revealed that Mathis has multiple arrests for not only assault and battery utilizing weapons, but also physically assaulting police officers. In fact, Mathis agreed at trial that she has been arrested in six or seven different jurisdictions for felony Assault and Battery upon a Police Officer.  I can’t imagine Mathis would just stand there while Holtzclaw or any other officer fondled her breasts along the side of a neighborhood street and in broad daylight.  And what about the timing of the stop she claims resulted in her being fondled? While she does state the time as between six and seven p.m., which matches the time for the Northeast Fifteenth and Jordan stop, she claims that the stop happened while it was “kind of dark out”.  Sunset for that date is recorded as 8:02 p.m.  She was stopped a full hour and a half before sunset.  It would have still been plenty light out during the time we know Holtzclaw stopped her.  Unlike Liggons, Morris and Ellis’ allegations, Mathis said that at no time was she placed in the backseat of Holtzclaw’s patrol car.  Instead she was seated on the curb near his vehicle.  And just like the Morris and Ellis stops, Holtzclaw spent a significant amount of time inquiring as to what the women may have known about the criminal activities in the area, specifically prostitution and drug trafficking.  Also, contrary to popular myth, Mathis didn’t have any active warrants.  The same as Morris and Liggons.  

 

36:47

There’s something else disturbing that stuck out to me.  Mathis clearly told detectives that she could pick her attacker out of a photo line-up, but as we know Detective Davis refused to show any accusers a photo line-up after Terry Morris failed to pick him out.  Detective Davis’ investigative notes reveal that she returned to the Oklahoma County Jail the next day.  She claims the purpose of that visit was simply to take an oral DNA swab, or buccal swab, of the inside of Mathis’ mouth, and to get some basic background information, so she didn’t bother to record the interaction.  You probably recall that Detective Gregory used that same excuse when he returned to visit accuser Terry Morris in jail and conveniently neglected to record most of what turned out to be a very incriminating interview. When we get to the trial episodes of this podcast, I’ll fill you in on some additional details, including how Mathis conveniently claims the groping occurred on the second encounter with Officer Holtzclaw, and not the third as she stated during this part of the investigation.  And one other interesting bit of information, while detectives, prosecutors, and the media all make a huge deal out of the fact Holtzclaw wasn’t arresting these women on their insignificant misdemeanor cost warrants, it was revealed that when Mathis testified in court, she had ten active felony warrants for her arrest, and no law enforcement officers or detectives had shown any interest in taking her into custody leading up to her appearance in court.  And there’s something else very significant about the Northeast Fifteenth and Jordan location where Mathis was twice previously stopped by Holtzclaw.  It’s actually within just a few feet of a suspected crack house that Holtzclaw had been keeping an eye on.  And the female occupant of that alleged crack house?  Well, she is about to insert herself into this investigation as yet another victim.  And Mathis claims she not only knows this accuser but she smokes crack with this accuser and worked as her housekeeper at the time.  But that’s for the next episode.

 

39:07

Here’s a quick recap of the red flags from this episode.  Accuser Florene Mathis has misidentified Daniel Holtzclaw as the officer that pulled her over in late 2013 or early 2014. Then she completely made up details about a female officer being called to the scene.  Lastly, during the stop where she says she was groped, she can’t remember the date, the month, or really any details of the alleged assault, but clearly states she was on either Northeast Seventeenth or Northeast Eighteenth Street and Kate Avenue, directly across from a park.  The problem is that’s nowhere near where Detective Davis knows Daniel Holtzclaw actually stopped her.  Yet, once again, Detective Davis justifies her actions with the following quote…

 

Det. Kim Davis: We’ll take our time and we’ll verify everything the girls say, or we’ll verify everything he said.  And the—and, and that’s the way the chips are gonna fall. And everything the girls said verified, and nothing he said did. [laugh]”

 

Host: In the next episode, detectives interview accuser Tabitha Barnes, the woman who reportedly employed Florene Mathis as her housekeeper even though she herself is on one hundred percent government assistance and is living in a home Officer Holtzclaw suspects of being a crack house. I hope you’ll join me as I continue to dig deep into the case of the State of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw.  If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to subscribe and give us a five star review.  If you would like to know more and see many of the files used to compile this episode, please visit this season’s homepage at holtzclawtrial.com. You can also follow updates on our Facebook page at In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw, or on Twitter @HoltzclawTrial.

 

41:07

 - END -

Episode 11

Episode 11 ׀Daniel Holtzclaw: Tabitha Barnes Allegations (Part 1)

 

 

[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE ENDS]

 

Timestamp: The following episode contains investigative events which occurred August 14 through August 17, 2014.

 

01:00

Host: Welcome back to Bates Investigates - Season One: In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw.  This is episode eleven.  I am your host, Private Investigator, Brian Bates, and I am breaking down the case of the State of Oklahoma vs. former Oklahoma City Police Officer Daniel Holtzclaw. As a member of Holtzclaw’s jury trial criminal defense team, I am presenting this serialized podcast from the perspective of the prosecution, but with the scrutiny of the defense.  In the investigative timeline, it is August 14, 2014, and Oklahoma City Police Sex Crimes Detective Rocky Gregory is seeking what he believes to be are additional victims of then patrol officer, Daniel Holtzclaw.  Detective Gregory begins his official report of this date with the following notation: “At 1400 hours, I went to try to locate Tabitha Barnes at her residence in the fifteen hundred block of Northeast Fifteenth Street.  In looking at suspect Holtzclaw’s record checks of females, Tabitha Barnes’ name stood out.  Also, initially, she matched a possible profile set aside by Lieutenant Muzny.” That profile is the “list” made by Lieutenant Muzny that later will be denied to actually exist. 

 

02:27

According to Detective Gregory’s report, he did locate Tabitha Barnes at her home in Northeast Oklahoma City.  And, like with so many of the black females with criminal histories that he profiled, he began his conversation by stating: “I introduced myself and advised that I had a tip that maybe she had been the victim of an unreported sexual assault.”  We don’t know if he added the words ‘by an Oklahoma City Police Officer’, and we don’t know that because Detective Gregory conveniently decides when he will and when he won’t record his investigative conversations.  We can only assume that he most likely did use those words and simply didn’t bother to note it in his report.  Why can we make that assumption?  Because we already know; he does use those words in all of his recorded interactions.  Well, except those with young, white, bikini models living in Edmond, as I pointed out in the beginning of episode ten.  Regardless, according to his report, Detective Gregory apparently has an entire conversation with Tabitha Barnes wherein she claims, “She was indeed touched inappropriately by an officer.  Tabitha advised that an OCPD officer had been harassing her on more than one occasion.” 

 

03:56

What happens next, especially when taken into context with the entirety of Detective Gregory’s investigation, really concerns me. And it should actually concern anyone who values the integrity of criminal investigations.  According to his official investigative report, upon Barnes’ alleged admission of inappropriate behavior by Holtzclaw, Detective Gregory contacted Lieutenant Muzny by phone and asked him to come to their location to sit in on the interview.  However, what he allegedly doesn’t do, is bother to audio record any of what was apparently a long, very detailed, and very odd interview. According to Detective Gregory’s report, Tabitha Barnes details an initial interaction wherein Holtzclaw allegedly made her expose herself and then allegedly touched her breasts. Barnes then begins to tell Detective Gregory and Lieutenant Muzny about a second encounter with Holtzclaw. However, she apparently begins to nod off and can’t even remain conscious.  I’m guessing her speech probably was fairly erratic and unintelligible at this point.  Detective Gregory notes in his report that they are unable to proceed with the interview, and that they agree to leave and come back the following morning at 10:00 a.m.

 

05:22

Gregory tries to downplay this as simply Barnes’ reaction to prescription Ambien and the fact she claims to have been up all night taking care of her grandbaby.  I’d be okay with giving Barnes the benefit of the doubt, if it wasn’t for the fact Detective Gregory conveniently claims he didn’t record any of this interaction. And then later, at trial, we find out that Barnes often smokes crack cocaine, and then Barnes actually shows up to testify while high on PCP: a fact that was only confirmed when trial judge, Timothy Henderson, ordered Barnes to undergo a drug test on the spot.  Regardless, when Detective Gregory returned the following morning at the pre-arranged time, Barnes was nowhere to be found. According to Gregory, he returned to Barnes’ residence at least five times, and called her contact numbers to no avail over the next couple of days.  Finally, on August 17, at about 2:15 in the afternoon, Detective Gregory was able to locate Barnes at her home.  Barnes claimed that she had caught up on her sleep and was able to continue with the interview.  Unlike the first interview, Detective Gregory did record this interaction.  The following is the complete audio recording of that meeting.

 

06:46[RECORDING BEGINS]

[SHUFFLING NOISES]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:What is today’s date, Tabitha?  Do you know?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Eighteenth, I think.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Seventeenth.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Oh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Detective Gregory, Oklahoma City Police Department.  I’m here with Tabitha Banks, here in front of her-

 

Tabitha Barnes: Barnes.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Barnes?  I’m sorry. Too many names.  [laughter]  I apologize. Here at, uh [redacted] Northeast Fifteenth.  We’re here to finish up our interview.  We spoke briefly the other day but we’re gonna go ahead and finish it today. Tabitha wanted to, uh, complete the interview.  All right. 

 

07:20 [RECORDING SOUND CHANGES]

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Okay.  On the, uh, what is your middle name, Tabitha?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Jean.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Gene?  G-E-N-E?

 

Tabitha Barnes: J-E-A-N.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Oh, okay.  All right. All right.  And your date of birth?

 

Tabitha Barnes: [redacted] 

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Okay.  What’s your social?

 

Tabitha Barnes: [redacted] 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Okay.  All right. Now, um, we had completed everything on the first incident, right?

 

Tabitha Barnes: [inaudible due to yawning]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Right.  Where it was snow on the ground.  You said it was the fourth, but you don’t know what month.  And that’s where the—the stop was right here.

 

Tabitha Barnes: That was March.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  That was March?

 

Tabitha Barnes: March 4th about 12:30. 

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Okay, but we—that’s the we had already covered. Correct?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Uh huh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  The other day when Lieutenant Muzny, where—was…

 

Tabitha Barnes: Uh huh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  And then you pulled into here and they ended up dispersing, he—he, after everybody was gone, and that’s when he had you lift your shirt up, and then he also lifted your breasts, correct?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yes.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  E—everything, that was, that—that was the first incident. Correct?

 

Tabitha Barnes: That was the first incident.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Okay.  So that was March 4th.  Okay. And I will—I will put that down. Okay.  Uh, you seem a lot more clear—clear minded today.  The other day you was pretty tired wasn’t you?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah, I got—oh, god, I had that baby.  It cry too much.  Took my Ambien, I was sleepy.  [laughter]

 

8:49

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Well, I know, yeah, yeah.  You, uh, you were pretty tired that day, but…

 

Tabitha Barnes: I took my Ambien and I was ready to go to sleep.  I was tired.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Okay.  So I’ve got that—that part down pretty good.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Uh huh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Correct?  He didn’t touch you any other way except for lifting the breasts that time.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Uh huh.  Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Okay.  Now, we were getting ready to talk about the second incident.

 

Tabitha Barnes: The second incident, um…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  How much later?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Oh, about two weeks.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Two weeks, okay?

 

Tabitha Barnes: I pulled up and my—someone had broken out my house.  There for—my, my landlord hadn’t fixed the door, the door just be—was just open. And I pulled up, there was another guy, well, I pulled on the side over here, and there was a guy in the grass, so that’s what I thought he—the police was here for.  No, he—it was him.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Was the police already here when you arrived?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah, he was.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Where was he parked?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Right here.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Right over here?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Right in the middle of the street.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Okay, what time did you—you said this was two weeks later, what time of day are we looking at?

 

Tabitha Barnes: About 9:30 [through yawn].

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  About what?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Excuse m—bout 9:30 at night.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  9:30 p.m., okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: 9:30.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: And he had been all in my house.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  How do you—so when you pull up here, you parked over there…

 

Tabitha Barnes: Cause I seen a guy laying out in the grass…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  And the police was here.

 

Tabitha Barnes: And that’s what I thought they was here for.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Okay, and you go where?

 

Tabitha Barnes: I get out the car. He called me by name in the grass to tell me to come here.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  The—the officer?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  Okay.  So the officer’s standing outside?

 

10:24

Tabitha Barnes: When he seen me pull up, he gets out his car, and I’m—I’m looking at the guy on the grass. And he s—called me by my name, told me to come here.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:  What’s he call you by?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Tabitha.  I’m like, ‘What is it now?’  And he said, ‘You got drugs on you?’  I said, ‘Why do you keep asking me if I do I have drugs?  If I had dr’—my, uh, something was cut off. My gas.  Said, ‘If I sold drugs do you think I’d be in a cold house waiting on DHS to pay my rent—I mean pay my, my gas bill?!’ ‘Let me talk to you again.’ So he, a guy friend of mine was over here and he was sleep while he was all in my house.  He said, ‘I just walked all through your house.’ Da-duh-duh-duh-duh.  I was, like, ‘Okay, did yo—y-y-you didn’t see nothing my in home, you know, illegally.  Why do you keep harassing me? ‘  ‘Well, get in the car.’  That’s when I get in the car.  He told me to get into the car again.  So, I got into the back seat.  And uh, he told my daughter—I sa—say, ‘You—‘, I say, ‘You scaring my child.’ ‘Me?’  I say, ‘Yeah, you.’  So, he told Ariana Barnes to come here.  He said, ‘Are you—am I scaring you?’  He said, ‘Yea’ —she said, ‘Yes, why do you keep bothering my momma?’  Cause I, I talks to my—my girls and I told them what happened.  Well, uh, he was, like, asked me again, ‘Do you got anything on you?’  I said, ‘No.’ Asked me to raise up my shirt again.  I done it.  Which, I didn’t have a bra on at the time.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You did?

 

Tabitha Barnes: I didn’t.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Didn’t, okay.

 

12:03

Tabitha Barnes: Asked me do I have anything in my pants and I said no, and he asked me, ‘Let me see.’  And I just did—he didn’t put his hands in it, he, I just did like this.  You know, had—I had on some leggings.  And he just, you know, said, ‘Open, open your leggings.’  And that’s when there was a twenty dollar bill in the backseat, and he was like, ‘You didn’t take my money, did you?’  I said, ‘Take your money for what?’  I didn’t even notice the twenty dollars until he said something, so I looked and there was a twenty dollar bill in the backseat.  Um, ran my name again.  Like, um, ‘When you gonna take care of your tickets?’  I said, ‘My—me and my father’s working on it.’  Um… he let me go again.  Two days later.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  I’m—I’ma stop you there, okay?  Cause I wanted you to run down through it to have a, a clear mind, okay?  Now I’m gonna back you up on that one.  I wanna cover everything, okay?  The more you cover with me, hopefully you won’t have to cover this, you know, later on, unless you want to, okay?  That—that’s my game plan.  Okay. Now, I do know it’s two weeks after March, so we’re still in March.  It’s 9:30 p.m.  You park over here on Jordan.

 

Tabitha Barnes: On the side of the house.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Cause I was saying…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And he is parked here.

 

Tabitha Barnes: In the middle of the street.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Here on, uh, Northeast Fifteenth.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  Who—who is with you in the car?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Me, my, my eleven year old, and my son.  

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, your eleven year old is who?  Is that…

 

Tabitha Barnes: Arianna.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Arianna.  Okay, and your son?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Marcus.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: How old’s Marcus?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Se—he’s seven.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, all right. So, he says, ‘Come here.’  Whe—you say there was a guy in your grass?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah, just laying there.  And I’m like, ‘You over here harassing me.  Why you won’t—who is this?  Who is this? What’s going on?  Wh—wh…’ You know, I’m thinking something wrong with the guy.  He kicks the guy, told him to get up and move on.  Didn’t ask him his name, what’s wrong with you, do you need an ambulance, nothing.  Kicks the guy, ‘Get up!  Move on!’

 

14:10

Det. Rocky Gregory: And the guy moves.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Wh—what did the guy look like?

 

Tabitha Barnes: I—I—I—I don’t know. It was, like, there’s so many people be up—up and through here, I don’t—I don’t—I don’t know ho—I didn’t even know the guy.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: White guy? Black guy?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Black.  He was black.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, but unknown. Okay.  So, that guy moved on?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah, he took—moved—walked that way.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, he moved Northbound here on—on Jordan.  Okay. All right.  But he tells you to come here.  Does he sit you in the police car?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Mmm, yes.  In the backseat.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  Okay, and your kids are still in the car?  

 

Tabitha Barnes: No, they got out. Was standing in the yard.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. Okay.  Now this—this is the part where I—I—I’m gonna really slow down.  He takes you, puts you in the car, backseat. What side were you on?

 

Tabitha Barnes: His side.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, so you were on the driver’s side.  Okay. What’s he do next?  Soon as you—he says come here, puts you in the back seat, did he already search you?

 

Tabitha Barnes: No.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, so he sits you down.

 

Tabitha Barnes: He always put me in the backseat.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  And what’s he say?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Asks me the same thing.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: What did he say?

 

Tabitha Barnes: ‘You take care of your tickets?’  I said, ‘I’m working on it.’  Then that’s when he asked me, ‘You got drugs on you?’  And that’s when I say, ‘If I had so—if I sold drugs, my gas wouldn’t be off. I wouldn’t be waiting on DHS to help me pay my bills.’

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, you said no on the tickets?

 

Tabitha Barnes: I said, yeah, no.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  Let me catch up on my notes, okay?  I’m sorry, I’m a slow writer.  I—you’re doing good, Tabitha.  Um… [long pause] pay for the electric?  Is that what you told me?

 

Tabitha Barnes: My gas.

 

15:59

Det. Rocky Gregory: Pay for gas. Okay.  All right, what’s the next thing he said?  He says, ‘You got any drugs.’  You tell him...

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah, that’s when he…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: That bill and paying the gas.  Okay, I got that.

 

Tabitha Barnes: He said, uh, ‘Could you lift your shir—can I see?’  I said, that’s when I said, I think I said again, ‘Why the—why you always coming over here by yourself and there ain’t nobo—you know, a—a lady detective with you?  Why do you always wanna see me, you know, with—and you by yourself?!’  And I went ahead and did it again.  And he was, like, I think...

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Now, is this before he talked to your daughter?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Mm, he—yeah, before he talked to Arianna.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. Okay.  So the kids are where?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Standing in the yard.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. 

 

Tabitha Barnes: And she was standing there.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, why, why by yourself.  What does he say after you s—you ask him why you always by yourself trying to see me?

 

Tabitha Barnes: He didn’t really say nothing.  He didn’t comment on it.  He was like, I wanna say he said, ‘I’m doing you a favor.’  Of what?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: And.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: What’s, what’s he say…

 

Tabitha Barnes: [inaudible] I can remember.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: What’s he say or do next?  After you confront him about…

 

Tabitha Barnes: He get out his car. He get out the front seat.  Open up the backseat.  W—and he was like, ‘Before I let you out, d—uh—I gotta check you.’ Uh…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did he already run you yet?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah, I was sitting right there when he ran me.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, so, you—he—he had run you during this time period?  Was it over the radio?

Tabitha Barnes: Yes.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did he pull you up on the screen?

 

17:35

Tabitha Barnes: I—uh, bout to think, nah, I didn’t look at the—I, I know he was messing with the screen, but I could hear the lady.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: That ran back, you know, told him what, that I had the ticket.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  ‘Before I let you go…’ he said what?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Do I, do you, asked me again do I have drugs on me.  I said, ‘No’.  And that’s when he was saying, ‘Well, I’ma have to check you.’  And, I raised my shirt up.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: He looked.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Hang on, one second, ‘I’m bout to check you?’

 

Tabitha Barnes: ‘I’ma have to.’  ‘I’m a have to check you.’

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: ‘Have’ to.  Did he tell you to raise your shirt or what did he…

 

Tabitha Barnes: Mm hmm.  Yes.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: How did he say it?

 

Tabitha Barnes: ‘Lift your shirt up.’ And I did like this.  I said, ‘I don’t have nothing on me.’  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, so…

 

Tabitha Barnes: He said, ‘You got anything your pants?’

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, it wasn’t the whole belly thing?  It was all the way up.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, you lift it all the way up, because that’s what he had you do before?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah.  It was, like, it was the same routine.

Det. Rocky Gregory: Let me ask you this, Tabitha.  Did you go to the belly or did you just automatically go up?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Just automatically go up.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Automatic. Okay. So, you had no bra on, correct?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Unh uh. [inaudible] Not that time.  The first time I did.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: The first time you did have a bra?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Oh, I thought you said, the other day, you did not have a bra.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Unh uh, the first time I had a bra on because I lifted it up.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Uh huh.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Lifted the bra up. And it wasn’t good enough for him. That’s when he lifted up my breast. This time, I know I didn’t have no bra on.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: On—on—on the first time, that he picked up your bare breasts.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: I—I had, cause I just did like this with my shirt and my bra.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And then he had you expose them.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah.

 

19:20

Det. Rocky Gregory: So you had to pull your bra up over the breasts on that first time.

 

Tabitha Barnes: And, with my shirt.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Is that correct? Is that what you said?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yes.  With my shirt.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  I’ll make that correction in my report.  I—I misunderstood you, I didn’t think you had a bra on that first time.  So, you did have a bra, he just had you pull it up and then he lifts it up.  Okay, this time you had no bra…

 

Tabitha Barnes: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So your breasts are exposed.  And what’s he say?

 

Tabitha Barnes: ‘You got anything in your pants?’  I said, ‘No.’ And he was, like, just kept looking at it, and then he was like, ‘Let me see.’  And I s—I had on leggings or tights, and I did, like, I pulled em to—out and he just looked and he was like, ‘Okay, I’ma let you go this time.’  Then he, uh, let me see, he said ‘I’ma let you go this time.’  I say about two weeks later…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: H—Hang on one second. Okay, so this time he did not touch your breasts?

 

Tabitha Barnes: He just looked.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And he did not touch your—your, uh, vagina?

 

Tabitha Barnes: No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  So, no touching.

 

Tabitha Barnes: The second time.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, but you sa—you mentioned earlier, that this is where you saw the twenty dollar bill?

 

Tabitha Barnes: This—yeah, that second time, I seen a twenty dollar bill in the backseat.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: What did he say about the twenty?  He said something.

 

Tabitha Barnes: He said, ‘Don’t touch...’  Uh, ‘Make sure my twenty dollars is back there.’  And I was, like, what, I said, ‘Nah.’  I said, ‘I had twenty dollars too.’  Cause I had it in my bra.  Tell him I had it in my bra either my hand, I know I had twenty dollars.  I was like, ‘Hold up.  I got twenty dollars too.’  And then I looked in the back and there was a twenty dollar bill in his backseat. I said, ‘I didn’t touch your twenty dollars.’  And I said…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: What’d he say he had the twenty dollars for?

 

Tabitha Barnes: That’s what I said. I said, ‘And what’s the twenty dollars for?’  He said, ‘I got my reasons.’  Got my reasons.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So there, that was his twenty in the back?

Tabitha Barnes: And when I got out, it was st—it remainded in the same spot in the backseat.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Where was it back there?

 

Tabitha Barnes: In the middle.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Right in the middle? Could you see it when you sat down?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Wel—wel—I wasn’t looking, but when he mentioned it when I got out, I looked.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And you could see it.

 

Tabitha Barnes: And I looked and I seen it.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, so…

 

Tabitha Barnes: And he, he came back.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Hang, hang on one second, Tabitha.  You said—sto—so he never did have your kids go inside, right?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah.  He told…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: On the s—on the second time?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah, he said, ‘She’s okay.  You can go in.’

 

21:46

Det. Rocky Gregory: You said something about scaring the kids and…

 

Tabitha Barnes: I told him that. I said, ‘You keep—you—you frightening my kids.  You keep coming over here.’  And he told her to come here.  And, uh, I was—he’s like, ‘I’ma—she’s not—she’s okay.  I’m not—I’m just talking to her about some things.  Ya’ll can go ahead and go in.’  But, my thing is, okay, he went in my house for no reason, was not called to go into—side my home.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: He said he was already in there?

 

Tabitha Barnes: He told me this. 

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Wh—wh—who was inside?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Terry Williams.

Det. Rocky Gregory: Who’s Terry Williams?

 

Tabitha Barnes: A ex friend of mine. 

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: How do I get ahold of Terry?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Uh, he in Lawton.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You gotta…

 

Tabitha Barnes: I—I’ll give him your number.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  Can you give me his number too?

 

Tabitha Barnes: He, he lost that phone, that’s why I said I’ll give him your number.  But he was sleep.  He was sleep in the house, he said, that—that, cause I told him what happened. What he made me do.  He was like, ‘You do something about that.’  I said, ‘Now who’s gonna believe me over a police officer’s word?’

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: But he tells you he was inside and Terry was there?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yes!  He was sleep.  Terry was sleep in my home.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, he knew he was asleep.  

 

Tabitha Barnes: He knew it.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And he said…

 

Tabitha Barnes: ‘I been all in your house.’  I said, ‘For what reason?’  I said, ‘You just walking out—‘.  I said, ‘Okay, okay.  You been in my house.  Okay. So?  I’m not hiding nothing.  Nothing’s in my home.’  This is what got me.  I wanna say the next day, seem like he might have just came on duty.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: H—h—hang on Tabitha. And I know you wanna get on to the next deal, I just wanna cover this.  He said he was all up in the house and there was a guy asleep on the couch.

 

Tabitha Barnes: No, in the room.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: In the room?

 

Tabitha Barnes: In the room. Terry said when he woke up, the, he woke him up with a flashlight in his face.

Det. Rocky Gregory: And what’d he say? What’d Terry say?

 

Tabitha Barnes: He asked him, a—asked him his name again.  I guess, ran his name and left out, but who knows how long he was in the house.

 

23:56

Det. Rocky Gregory: Mmm… okay, so Terry? Do you know how to… T-E-R-R-Y?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Williams.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah.  Who knows…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, and he said he ran him?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah, Terry said he, uh, cause there, we had a incident, uh, uh, when Sho—we call him Shorty—when Shorty and his friend get off, when he—when they get off of work they would come over and chill with me when they got off of work.  And, uh, Jesse, uh, I don’t know Jesse’s last name, but I could get it, when they got off of work they was sitting right here. I mean, he wo—he pulled Jesse out the truck one day, told him he had on makeup, that he was gay.  They had just got off of work.  I mean, just would just come here just, I don’t know what his thing was.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You talking about the cop?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Told him he had on makeup.  That he was gay.  And, all kinda stuff.  Oh, okay, another thing.  He came—they came back because, like, a hot—okay, we gonna rewind that because… the… after he made me…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: [burp] Excuse me.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Okay, after, after he made me show m—after the ice cream situation, which is when we was gonna get ice cream.  I wanna say three days or something later, a guy broke in my home.  And there, we was having a, uh, slumber party.  So, it was a lot of girls.  My—add more kids.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Before this time that we just talked about?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Mm hmm.  

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: And he was one of the officer’s that showed up, out of probably ten.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: But nothing happened that day?

 

Tabitha Barnes: No.  He kept asking me where’s all the girls that was in the house.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: But that day that their slumber party thing, he didn’t do anything to you?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Unh uh.  That’s when he started coming.  Afterwards.  That’s when he started coming.

 

25:55

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, slumber party. 

 

Tabitha Barnes: We went to eat.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Lots of kids?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah.  Lotta girls—it was the girls though.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: But there was, there was more cops.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah, when I—cause I had to call em for the break in.  I had to call em for the break in, so but he seen—I gue—everybody was at the house, they was all girl...

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, he was talking about that?  

 

Tabitha Barnes: Little girls.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And then this, this other time was days later.  That’s when he had you sit in the car.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah, he asked me about that.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Parked over there.

 

Tabitha Barnes: He was like where’s all…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: But he said he was all up in your house.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did he say anything specific about your house?

 

Tabitha Barnes: No, he was just like, ‘I was all in your house.’  I said, ‘Why would you be in my home?  I didn’t call you.  You should be taking care of the guy that was on the ground.’

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Te—was Terry a boyfriend or what is he?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  So he was in your bedroom?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Actually, the, uh, yeah.  My son’s room.  Sleep.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, make sure you get me Terry’s name, okay?  Or, his phone num—pass on, I need to get ahold of him.  Okay.  So this next thing, so he didn’t touch you on that, but then the next time, how much later are—are we?  Let’s—let’s go to that time.

 

Tabitha Barnes: He that—that’s—a—this—this is when it ended.  He came over.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: How much later? What?

 

Tabitha Barnes: The next day.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, okay, so, two weeks, plus a day.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah.  Matter of fact, I wanna say, like, a month ago, he came too.  But I didn’t open the door, I was looking at him through the window.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Was he in uniform?

 

Tabitha Barnes:  Mm hmm.

 

27:25

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, so two weeks, so it’s the very next day.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Oh, okay, he came, and I opened up the door.  I was cooking.  And I didn’t know what to do so I called my mother in Texas to let her listen.  Cause he would always ask me for my phone. Every time the—the—first times, but I was in my house this time.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: But this is the next day after he sat you out here in his car? 

 

Tabitha Barnes: Mm hmm.  Came over here.  He was like…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Bout what time?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Bou—I knew his hours too, about 4:30.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: 4:30 during the day.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Mm hmm.  He had just come on duty because you could smell his cologne and he wasn’t—he, he didn’t look like he had just, you know, been out—he ain’t been out.  He looked like he just came on.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: So…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, he comes to the door, he knocks.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Mm hmm…. knocks. Knocks hard, knocks hard.  My brother was here then, Danny Brown.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You said you called your mother?

 

Tabitha Barnes: I called my mom on my phone.  I was already telling her that I was tired of him, you know, wanting to see my body and I didn’t know what to do about it.  My mother’s, uh, lives in Texas.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: So, he said…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You opened the door.

 

Tabitha Barnes: I opened the door.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: He was like, ‘What are you doing?’  I said, ‘Cooking dinner for my kids.’  He said, ‘Can I come in?’  I said, ‘No!’ ‘So you not gon—uh… I need to come search your house for drugs.’  I said, ‘You wanna come search my house for drugs?’  I said, ‘I don’t know where you getting your information from, but it’s the wrong information, first of all.’  I said, ‘Second of all, you just told me you was all in my house last night.  If you, you know, if—if anything was in my home, you would’ve seen it then...’ was my point.  So, he said, ‘So, you not gonna let me in?’  I said—nah, he said, ‘Who here with you?’  I said, ‘Me and my kids.’  I didn’t even tell him my brother was with me.  I said, ‘Me and my kids.’  And he was like, ‘So, you not gonna let me in?’  And I said, ‘No.’  He said, ‘All right.’  Start talk—I, I don’t know what he mumbled under his breath.  What he, what he mumbled under his breath.  And, he was like, ‘I’m helping you.  I’m doing you a favor.  You haven’t paid your fucking tickets.’  I heard him say that.  He said, ‘And I’ll be back.’  I was, like, okay.  And that was in May, so May 1st my mom had a heart attack.  Okay.

 

30:05

Det. Rocky Gregory: This was… wait, wait, you said the first incident was March 4th.  You said two weeks later was this incident and that would still be in March.

 

Tabitha Barnes: March, so if… no, I said in May.  Me.  In May, I left, like, May 1st.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Oh you left?

 

Tabitha Barnes: And I never seen him. I never seen him again.  And then…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Where did yo—oh, where did you go?  Down to your momma’s?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah, I left for three months.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, so, okay, and that was the last time you actually had any dealings with him?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Face to face.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: When he wanted to come in.  What reason, I don’t know.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  Let me kinda cover this just a—a—a little bit more. Okay?  The first time was March 4th.  That’s where he had you lift your shirt and your bra and that’s where he lifted up your breasts.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yes.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Kinda about where we’re parked right now.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Right here.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Do—uh, there’s a call at your house.  This is in reference to the break in.  He comes with other officers.  There’s dealings with a slumber party, but he doesn’t do anything to you then.

 

Tabitha Barnes: No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  Cause there was other officers.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah, I, I went my own self and I told, you know, the man had broke in my house.  We—we—we actually held him down until the officers got here.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Th—is he the main officer on that call?  Okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: [random noise]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Then, then it was two weeks after the first incident, that’s when he pulled you back here, he had you lift your shirt all the way, and then he asked to see down your pants. Could he see your vagina on that second time?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did you have—you had on what color of leggings?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Unh uh.  I had on black leggings, but no panties.  I don’t wear—I didn’t have no underwear.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did he know you didn’t have any underwear?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Not at, not at the time, at, you know, I’m sure he didn’t.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Until…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: In going along with that, he has you pull… how does he ask to see, ‘Got anything down your pants?’

 

Tabitha Barnes: I did like this, ‘No, I don’t.’  He said—d—h—he had his flashlight.

 

32:18

Det. Rocky Gregory: Oh, he was looking down?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah, he had his flashlight.  I said, ‘No, I do not.’

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So you just flipped it out?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And then, does he say anything when you flip it out?

 

Tabitha Barnes: He never says nothing but ‘mmm’.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, was your legs faced out here?

 

Tabitha Barnes: No, they were still in the car.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  Okay, so then you had your, uh, so he—but he didn’t touch you?  He just, it was lifting the shirt?  Okay. What kind of a shirt did you have on then?

 

Tabitha Barnes: I basically, my—I wear a lot of t-shirts, so it was probably a, like, a white t-shirt.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Basic—cause I wear a lot of t-shirts.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  Could your s—kids see any of this?

 

Tabitha Barnes: No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Were they out there?

 

Tabitha Barnes: I think Arianna was on the porch, but…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did he ask to see your breasts or touch your breasts?

 

Tabitha Barnes: When?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: On the second time.

 

Tabitha Barnes: No, he just—al—he wh—he just asked me to raise my shirt up.  Lis—asked me did I ha—he always say, ‘Do you got drugs on you?’  I would say, ‘No.  I don’t know where you getting your information.’  He was like, ‘Well, I’ma have to check you, can you raise your shirt?’  I mean, and I mean, just, like, he would drive by my house every day.  I got to the point where I wouldn’t even come outside. Like, I would bar—cause I didn’t want him messing with me.  I would just watch him do other girls like that on the side of my—I would look out the window.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: What do you mean?

 

Tabitha Barnes: [inaudible due to yawning] They could be walking and he could be, uh, just stop them randomly. Uh…

 

34:23

Det. Rocky Gregory: Do you know of anybody that he’s done this to?

 

Tabitha Barnes: I didn’t know—I don’t know no—nobody over here so, I mean, I would call my daughter.  I’d be, like, look, look, look, he doing it to them. And I seen him once before…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: But you don’t know a name?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Unh uh.  Don’t know no names.  And he would let them go all the time.  And I se—and you know, once again, I—he couldn’t, I don’t know what happened, but I must have seen him s—every bo—every time I seen him stop, uh, uh, anybody, it was a—it was a female.  I seen him stop someone at the Northeast Sixteenth Store.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: I want you—I want you to describe him again to me.  Make sure I got it.

 

Tabitha Barnes: About six one.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Probably six two.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You said he was a r—what race?

 

Tabitha Barnes: He’s white.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  What color skin?

 

Tabitha Barnes: White skin.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: I mean, like…

 

Tabitha Barnes: Like a tan color, like a Indian tan color to me.  Not dark, dark, but you know, he wasn’t pale.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Tall guy.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: What would he weigh?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Broad shoulders. He would always have his hair, like, I guess he would do it with hairspray and…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: What color hair?

 

Tabitha Barnes:  Like a brown in it. Brownish.  Light brown.  And it would be spiked up in the front.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: What do you think he’d weigh?

Tabitha Barnes: Uh…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Cause the other day you said he was really built.

 

Tabitha Barnes: He is.  Up here.  Like a stocky build to me.  He probably hitting bout two thirty.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Anything else about him that…

 

Tabitha Barnes: He’s young.  He wasn’t an older guy.  He was probably, I say, in his thirties—for—thirty four. Might have been younger than that, but he wasn’t, like, in his forties or nothing like that.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And you never caught his name?

 

Tabitha Barnes: No, I never got his name.  I just would tell my mom and my family and, like, they was just like, ‘There’s something you could do about that.’  I was like, ‘They not gonna believe me.’  [long pause] He was a young guy.  He wasn’t ol—old—he looked like a rookie.  I mean, I watch movies.  I know he wasn’t, he wasn’t your age, you know, old school guy.  No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: See any scars, marks, tattoos?

 

36:59

Tabitha Barnes: No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: But if you showed me a picture I bet you I could identify him.  Because he, I mean, he would come over here, just come, I mean drive through constantly.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You, you said it was a new car he was driving?  Is that right?

 

Tabitha Barnes: He usually came in that little Z twent—I don’t know if I know my cars, but I th—the new one. The new black and white.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Is it black and white or is it all black?

 

Tabitha Barnes: All black.  And it got ‘police’ on it.  And the last stop he made, I can’t quote what date it was, but he was in the old—the ne—the older car.  The older… car and I—and I was trying to do a little searching on him and I…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, the second time he was in an older car?

 

Tabitha Barnes: The last time. The last time he came…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Oh, the one he…

 

Tabitha Barnes: And I didn’t open the door. I was looking out the window at him.  He was pa—he parked back about right here.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And he wanted to do a… wanted to walk… 

 

Tabitha Barnes: He—di—he, he came in one of them cars.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, he wanted to, just…

 

Tabitha Barnes: I—I—

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: He wanted in your house.

 

Tabitha Barnes: That was the time he wanted in my house.  That was the last face to face he seen with me.  He wanted to come in.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Hmm.

 

Tabitha Barnes: I said, ‘Come in for what.’  He said, ‘To search your home.’  I said, ‘Search my home for what?  You was just in here last night.  If you seen—did I have any drugs laying around?  Did you see any doobies in my?  I smoke cigarettes.  I know you ain’t seen nothing but cigarettes.’

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes: I said, ‘You seen no alcohol in my home, no alcohol bottles, no beer bottles, nothing.’

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You ever, um, okay, so, he only touched your breasts once, right?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, did he ever touch your vagina?

 

Tabitha Barnes: No, he just looked at it.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did he ever have sex with you?

 

Tabitha Barnes: No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  You ever see his penis?

 

Tabitha Barnes: No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did he ever talk about having sex with you?

 

Tabitha Barnes: No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Can you think of any other thing that I’m missing, or anything like that?

 

39:08

Tabitha Barnes: No, that was about it with him.  He just… and I—I was jus—no, I was just kind—I mean, when I had to go to move to Texas for that month to help my mom, um, that’s probably what saved me with that man.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  Is [redacted] was here for the first and second stops, correct?  Okay. Is she here?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You think you could send her out so I could talk with her?  [CAR DOOR OPENS]  I’m gonna, okay, uh, see, I thought he originally had touched you on your vagina. I was gonna get your buccal swabs because there’s some DNA questions out there we have.  Let me…

 

Tabitha Barnes: Nah, he didn’t put his hands.  He just did my breasts.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Bare breasts.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. Yeah. Okay, if I have anything I’ll probably just swing by, so don’t—don’t wig out if I come back by, okay?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: All right. Yeah, I’ll just talk with [redacted]. Oh, I need your mom’s number.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And then I need that information to Terry as well.

 

Tabitha Barnes: Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

[CAR DOOR SHUTS]

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

40:16

Host:  With Tabitha Barnes’ second interview completed, Detective Gregory next interviews Barnes’ eleven year old daughter.  Out of an abundance of caution, I have decided to redact Barnes’ daughter’s name.  When referencing the daughter in the future, I will simply refer to her by the alias, Jaime—which is not her real name.  The following is the audio recording of Detective Gregory’s interview with Jaime in his vehicle while parked in front of Barnes’ home on Northeast Fifteenth Street.

 

40:51

[RECORDING BEGINS]

[CAR DOOR OPENS]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Hey.

 

Jaime:Hi.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Let me send this. Hey, I’m Detective Gregory.  I was kind of the ugly guy here the other day sitting in the car with your mom.

 

Jaime:[laughing]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Um… okay, all right, now you’re, you [redacted] correct?  

 

Jaime:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: All right.  And Tabitha, that is your mother, correct?

 

Jaime:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: How old are you?

 

Jaime:Ten.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  What’s your date of birth?

 

Jaime:Uh, 0-3.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: With, with, month and day?

 

Jaime:Um… [redacted].

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. Okay.  This, uh, this deal in reference to the officer.

 

Jaime:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, do you know what I’m talking about?

 

Jaime:Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  And, um, what do you know about the situation? What have—what have you seen for yourself to happen?

 

Jaime:That, um, he was asking my mom to show her body.  And then he kept, um, he kept s—sitting right here in front of our house.  And he kept asking him why you coming here, why you coming here?  And then my Aniesaid cause uh, I’m living with, um, I’m living with her right now.  And then he said oh.  And then he kept—he keep coming back, he just kept coming back for no simple reason.  Then when we was gone, he came in our house.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Jaime:My step-dad was in the bed asleep.  And then, uh, my step-dad say he came in the house while, while, um, we was gone.  And then, uh, we was about to go get some ice cream, and he pulled us over for no simple reason.  We had, we all had on seatbelts.  The tag was right.  My momma, she didn’t have license, but the person that was driving, they had license.

 

42:49

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  And I know that there’s different times, and i—is—just so I’ll be clear, I think, in my mind, is that when there was snow on the ground?

 

Jaime:Ummm, no.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: When they pulled into the driveway?  How many times have you seen this officer yourself?  Forget about what you’ve heard.  What, how many times have you seen him, just yourself?

 

Jaime:Um, like, four or five times.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Where have you always seen him at?

 

Jaime:Right here, where you parked.  He always just sit right here.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Since when was the first time you ever saw him?

 

Jaime:Ummm…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And this is August.

 

Jaime:Bout March.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  Let me ask you this, and this is, I—I know what you’ve heard.  The thing—the story that you just told me, I am sure that your, your momma told you that, correct?

 

Jaime:My momma told me what?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: About what happened.

 

Jaime:Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  Now, so I’m just trying to get what you actually saw, okay?  With your own eyes and heard with your own ears.  Okay?  Did you ever see him do anything?  Touch your momma?  Badly?

 

Jaime:No, I only heard her say to hi—he asked her to see her breasts.  And um, he kept saying, ‘I like, I would like to see those.’

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: What else did your momma say?

 

Jaime:Um, that’s all she told me.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did you momma say anything that he did touch her?

 

Jaime:Mmm… yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: [long pause] Okay.  Okay.  All right. But you never did see him actually touch her?

 

Jaime:I saw her—I—I saw him, like, try to touch her arm and then she was just, like, yanking away.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, but not anywhere else beside the arm?

 

Jaime:No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. Okay.  Did he ever tell you to go inside the house or anything?

 

Jaime:Yeah.

 

45:04

Det. Rocky Gregory: How many times?

 

Jaime:Like, every time he’d come.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  How many times did he have your momma sit in the back seat of the car?  

 

Jaime:Every time he’d come.  He’d be like—last time he said—told her to sit in the front. She said, ‘I’ll just sit in the back.’ 

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: [long pause] But you’ve always seen him here at this house.

 

Jaime:Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  [long pause] What’d this officer look like?

 

Jaime:He had spikes.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: What do you mean?

 

Jaime:He was—he had spikes on his hair.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: What color hair?

 

Jaime:It was, like, grayish.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Jaime:It was grayish and he was buff a little bit.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Bout how tall?

 

Jaime:I do—I—I can’t…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: But he was buff? Okay.  Do you know what he’d weigh?

 

Jaime:Unh uh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  Do you know how old he would be?

 

Jaime:No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: But you’ve seen him four or five times here?  Okay. Did your momma ever tell you anything else besides the breast stuff?

 

Jaime:No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. Okay.  I think that’s really all I needed.  I’m gonna touch base with your momma.

 

[CAR DOOR OPENS]

[BEEPING NOISES]

[KEYS JINGLING]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Thank you [redacted].

 

Jaime:You’re welcome.

 

[RECORDING ENDS]

47:04

Host:I’m going to conclude this episode at this point.  In the next episode, I will be providing more details as to Barnes’ allegations and the red flags that Detective Gregory intentionally left out of his official investigative report.  For example, Barnes’ home is often visited by accuser, Florene Mathis, from episode ten. And there, she and Florene, often smoke crack together.  Patrol Officer Holtzclaw believes Barnes is dealing crack cocaine out of her home. And what about Terry Williams: the boyfriend who often stays overnight at Barnes’ residence with her children, and was sleeping in one of the children’s beds when confronted by Holtzclaw? Well, he’s a registered sex offender and Detective Gregory didn’t think that was important to include in his report. I’m certain it comes as no surprise to you that nothing in this case is ever as simple as it’s presented by investigators and the prosecution.  I hope you’ll join me as I continue to dig deep into the case of the State of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw.  

 

If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to subscribe and give us a five star review.  If you would like to know more and see many of the files used to compile this episode, please visit this season’s homepage at holtzclawtrial.com. You can also follow updates on our Facebook page at In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw, or on Twitter @HoltzclawTrial.

 END

EPISODE 12

Intro:                           This podcast deals with adult subject matter, including depictions of drug addiction, prostitution, sexual assault and rape. Parental Guidance as suggested.

 

Newscaster:                Officer Daniel Holtzclaw, with the police department for three years, is accused of raping and sexually assaulting women he pulled over while on the job.

 

Jannie Ligons:             He said, “Come on, come on. Just a minute.” I said, “Sir I can't do this. You are going to shoot?”

 

Det. Davis:                  Your description of him?

 

Sherry Ellis:                He's black.

 

Det. Davis:                  Okay, he's a black male.

                                    What did your daughter tell you?

 

Amanda Gates:           She said, “I met this really hot cop.”

 

Shardayreon Hill:        So this is good evidence?

 

Det. Gregory:              Well, you tell me.

 

Newscaster:                The following episode contains investigative events which occurred August 14ththrough August 17th2014.

 

Host:                           I sincerely want to welcome you back to Bates investigates season one. This is Episode 12 of the case of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw. In the last episode we heard the August 17th2014 interview between Oklahoma City Police sex crimes detective Rocky Gregory, 41 year old Holtzclaw accuser, Tabitha Barnes, and her 11 year old daughter.  Barnes had first been approached by detective Gregory on August 14th, after he went to her home and inquired if she was the victim of an underreported sexual assault. When Barnes indicated that she had been harassed by an Oklahoma City police officer and inappropriately touched, Gregory called for his boss, Lieutenant Timothy Muzny to come to their location and witness the interview. What detective Gregory and Lieutenant Muzny failed to do however, was to audio record any of this initial interview. Instead, the official investigative report claims that Barnes was sleepy and nodding off due to being up all night and recently taking the prescription medicine, Ambien. Detective Gregory ended the interview and reportedly rescheduled for 10a.m. the following day at Barnes’s residence.

                                    Personally, I find this very troubling. For one, I do not believe that detective Gregory a season sex crimes investigator took the time to drive to Barnes's home and then call and ask his boss to join them, but neglected to record the resulting interview. You will recall that up to this point, investigators had just recorded accuser Florin Mathis the day before and recorded accuser Sherry Ellis and Terry Morris on multiple occasions. Furthermore, Lieutenant Muzny didn't even bother to file a supplemental report noting his presence during this interview and what he heard and observed. I personally believe that was a deliberate act to further distance himself from this particular encounter. If you care for my opinion, I firmly believe that detective Gregory did indeed record this first encounter with Tabitha Barnes. However, she was so high, so incoherent and unable to remain conscious that detective Gregory knew the recording would not reflect well on Barnes or her credibility, and therefore, he had no other option than to terminate the interview and start again at a later date. In fact, Detective Gregory said this to Barnes when he finally met with her again in reference to her incoherence just days before.

 

Det. Gregory:              You seem to have a lot more clearer mind into that.

 

Host:                           There is also another troubling possible and I'll get to that one in just a moment. Detective Gregory claims he returned to Barnes's residents the next morning, but then she was not home. According to his report, he called her contact numbers several times and returned to her home over and over again over the next couple of days, at least five times to no avail. Keep in mind, Barnes is unemployed, broke, has at least three young children and doesn't drive. Yet detectives claim that she isn't home and they can't locate her. However, on August 17th, at around 2:15 in the afternoon, detective Gregory is once again at Barnes’s residence. This time she is home and he records his subsequent interview that you heard in Episode 11. I find the timing between the first interview with Barnes the one that was mysteriously not recorded and cut short on August 14th, and the one that was recorded only three days later on August 17th.

                                    [00:05:06]       

                                    An important event happened just prior to the first interview and immediately following that interview, but prior to the second recorded interview. On August 13th, investigators you'll recall met with accuser Florene Mathis at the Oklahoma County Jail. I covered her allegations in Episode 10. As I alluded to in that episode, Florene Mathis has a direct connection to this episode and Tabitha Barnes. For one, you may remember that Mathis admitted that she frequented and had just left a crack house near Northeast 16th and Jordan Avenue shortly before Daniel Holtzclaw allegedly touched her breast inappropriately on April 14th of 2014. We also know from Episode 10 that Holtzclaw never encountered Mathis where Mathis claims she was sexually assaulted the Northeast 17th or Northeast 18th and North Kate Avenue. Instead, GPS and radio dispatch records clearly show that Holtzclaw twice encountered Mathis at Northeast 15th and Jordan and that both times suspected that she was in the area buying and or using illegal drugs. Well, guess who lives at the corner of Northeast 15th and Jordan Avenue? That's right, Tabitha Barnes. And Tabitha Barnes repeatedly claims that officer Holtzclaw suspects her and her home to be responsible for dealing crack cocaine and PCP in the immediate area.

                                    Now, before you go thinking I'm making associations between Mathis and Barnes that are unwarranted, specifically that Barnes was dealing crack cocaine and Mathis was one of her customers just know that at trial, Florene Mathis admitted she has indeed smoke crack cocaine with Tabitha Barnes inside Barnes’s home at Northeast 15th and Jordan Avenue. Furthermore, it was made known to Holtzclaw’s defence counsel prior to trial and then confirmed at trial that Mathis claimed she worked for Barnes as her housekeeper. Barnes at this time was unemployed, a convicted felon, the single mother of at least six children with at least three of those children being minors, and was 100% on government assistance for food, utilities and rent. And the house Mathis smoked crack cocaine in with Barnes on multiple occasions while working as Barnes's housekeeper, it’s a tiny modest, single storey, two bedrooms, one bath 720 square foot home built in 1955. Yet, nowhere in any of the reports I have, generated by detective Davis or detective Gregory does it reflect any conversation where Mathis admits to knowing, working for or smoking crack cocaine with Barnes in her home. As a matter of fact, nowhere in any reports that I have do investigators question Tabitha Barnes about her drug usage or possible dealing. Yet, she repeatedly states that officer Holtzclaw inquires about her drug dealing, each and every time he encounters her. I find it odd that investigators would intentionally stay away from that topic with Barnes when they specifically addressed drug usage with Morris, Ellis and Mathis.

                                    The day after interviewing Mathis at the Oklahoma County Jail, detective Gregory just happens to show up on Barnes’s doorstep and it's the only interview where Gregory calls his boss to attend the interview in the field while also allegedly not recording the resulting interview. Less than 24 hours after cutting short their unrecorded interview with Barnes, investigators returned to the Oklahoma County Jail and speak with Florene Mathis yet again. They claim they didn't bother to record that interview because they were only there to get a DNA sample- a DNA sample? Mathis alleged she was simply touched on top of her clothing on a single breast and that was two months prior to Ligons even being stopped. Exactly what DNA did they think had been transferred and would match the DNA on Holtzclaw’s pants? Surely they weren't actually at the jail because of something Barnes said during her unrecorded interview that linked her and Mathis and crack cocaine. 

                                    [00:10:00]

                                    I can only speculate that that is exactly why they returned to the jail and didn't record that interview either. Two days later on August 17th, detective Gregory once again returns to Barnes's residence and completes his interview. That's the interview you heard in Episode 11. With the benefit of that recording, the official investigative reports and trial testimony, I’m going to now break down Tabitha Barnes's allegations and discuss the red flags and contradictions that investigators and the prosecution would most likely prefer to remain unscrutinised.

                                    For starters, all of the police investigative reports I used to compile this episode are posted on this episode's homepage at Holtzclaw trial.com. You can also check this episode show notes in your streaming app for a direct link. If you get a chance, take the time to look these reports over. Something that should stand out to you is the fact that detective Gregory repeatedly refers to officer Holtzclaw in his official report as spike. He claims that's a nickname given to Holtzclaw by Barnes and her children because they didn't know his real name, but associated the nickname with this spike hairstyle. In fact, detective Gregory refers to officer Holtzclaw as spike at least 15 times in his report regarding his first and second interviews with Tabitha Barnes. Here's the problem though. Nowhere in the recorded interview from Episode 11 do you hear Tabitha Barnes or her daughter ever referred to Holtzclaw as spike or any other nickname? Which begs the question, when exactly was this nickname provided to detective Gregory and why was that meeting not noted in any investigative reports? The fact that neither Barnes nor her daughter ever call Holtzclaw spike in their initial interviews, which I'll remind you took place almost five months after the last time they claim they ever saw officer Holtzclaw leads me to believe this really wasn't a nickname they associated with Holtzclaw at the time of the alleged incidents. Instead, I think it's far more likely that that nickname was something that resulted from later meetings with investigators that went undocumented. Regardless, the very first forwarded fact by Tabitha Barnes should have immediately sent up red flags.

                                    Unlike previous accusers, who are unsure of either the specific date or location of their alleged assault, Barnes's certain of both. She repeatedly claims the assault occurred in front of her house and on March 4th 2014. Detective Gregory even repeats that date back for her confirmation.

 

Det. Gregory:              You said it was the fourth but you don't know what month and that's where the stop was, right here.

 

Tabitha Barnes:           It was March.

 

Det. Gregory:              That was March?

 

Tabitha Barnes:           March fourth about 12:30.

 

Det. Gregory:              Okay, that was the first incident, okay.

 

Tabitha Barnes:           That was the first incident.

 

Det. Gregory:              Okay, so that was March fourth, okay. And I will that down, okay.

 

Host:                           However, detective Gregory knows like with accuser Morris that the date given doesn't work and actually exonerates Holtzclaw. GPS data and police records from March 4th, 2014 show that officer Holtzclaw couldn't have had any contact with Tabitha Barnes. But Barnes recalls the date because she associates it with a very specific action that night. Remember, she had an adult friend over and her daughter was also having a slumber party. They were all in the car waiting for midnight because that's when Barnes's snap or food stamp card renews- at midnight, and they wanted to go get some ice cream and snacks. But there's a problem with that scenario and detective Gregory knew or should have known it. Holtzclaw patrol car GPS shows him at Barnes's residents for the first time on February 27th 2014, not March 4th. And you can't simply say she's getting the date wrong, because she's associated that date with very specific events, the renewal of a food stamp card. That said snap or food stamp benefits are only distributed on specific days each month; the first, the fifth, and the tenth. So Barnes probably was in her car on the evening of March 4th and waiting until midnight or 12:01 on March 5th, for food stamp card to be renewed. But she couldn't have encountered Holtzclaw on that date.

                                    [00:15:07]

                                    Which begs the question, is she simply getting the date and her activities wrong? Or is she referencing the right date, just a different police officer?

                                    Regardless, she's certain of the date, March 4th 2014. There was a way detective Gregory could have clarified this from the very beginning. Barnes made this statement during their interview.

 

Tabitha Barnes:           No, but if you showed me a picture, I could identify him.

 

Host:                           However, as we all know by now, none of the accusers beyond Terry Morris was ever shown a photo line-up regardless of the fact that the accuser specifically said they could pick their attacker out if a photo was shown to them. Regardless, by the time this case rolls around the trial, Barnes now magically ascertain the date matches Holtzclaw GPS on February 27th 2014. Yet nowhere in any official investigative report, does it reflect a meeting where in Barnes has this epiphany with investigators that she now remembers a new date. She simply shows up the court primed and ready to go with the date that just happens to exactly match the date detective Gregory needs her to say. The next uncertainty comes when Tabitha Barnes identifies who else was present when she was stopped by officer Holtzclaw. According to Barnes, they were all in her green Ford or Saturn, and it was her in the front passenger seat, her 35 year old friend Angela Cooper in the driver's seat, and Barnes’s 13 and 11 year old daughter's in the backseat.

                                    When Cooper was interviewed, however, which wasn't for over a month, and only after Holtzclaw had been arrested, she claims in the car, was herself as the driver, Tabitha as the front passenger, one of Tabitha’s daughters in the backseat, along with a friend of the daughter that was staying the night. Further evidence shows that the daughter was most likely the 13 year old and a 13 year old friend. Cooper gives no mention of the 11 year old daughter. That's the same daughter that was interviewed by detective Gregory on August 17th 2014. This discrepancy caused me to go back and listen to the recording of that interview again and sure enough, if you listen to that interview, without the bias of assuming that the 11 year old daughter was there that night, it becomes obvious that the 11 year old daughter wasn't in fact in the car during that early morning stop. She literally is never asked directly by detective Gregory if she was there during the Holtzclaw stop in late February. And detective Gregory specifically points out to her, that he can tell that she was coached by her mother.

 

Det. Gregory:              Let me ask you this and this is- I know what you've heard. The thing is the story that you just told me, I'm sure that your mama told you that, correct?

 

Barnes’s Daughter:     My mama told me what?

 

Det. Gregory:              About what happened?

 

Barnes’s Daughter:     Yeah.

 

Det. Gregory:              Okay.

 

Host:                           Yet at trial, it was still forwarded by the prosecution that the 11 year old daughter was present. Even though, when they called her to the stand, she clearly claimed she had never met officer Holtzclaw until March 25th of 2014. That's almost a month after the midnight stop in February. In fact, not only does Angela Cooper not mention the 11 year olds presence in the car, but neither does Barnes’s 13 year old daughter or the 13 year old daughter's friend. So we are not even into the allegation, and the accuser has an impossible date that she is certain of and has forwarded an 11 year old witness that she has coached and was not even present regardless of the day given.

                                    Here's what I do know. Some officer may have encountered Barnes and touched her on March 4th 2014. But it wasn't Holtzclaw. He did however; encounter Barnes on February 27th 2014 and in the car during that encounter was Angela Cooper as the driver, Tabitha Barnes as the front passenger and in the backseat was Barnes's 13 year old daughter and her daughter's 13 year old friend. Where the car was parked when officer Holtzclaw arrived on scene is also a bit suspicious. It wasn't parked in the driveway and it wasn't parked directly in front of Barnes’s house.

                                    [00:20:00]

                                    According to Barnes, the car was in the street on Northeast 15th facing east towards a stop sign at Jordan Avenue. However, the car was parked to the west of her residence. Actually, it was in front of the property line of her neighbour’s home. We know this because Barnes testified that when she saw the police cars behind her, she pulled up and turned into her driveway. Which begs the question; why not park in your own driveway or in front of your own home? Is it because you don't want your car associated with your house? Is it you don't want people to know anyone is home? Or is it because there is so much traffic coming and going from your house, you are freeing up space, you know, like a drug house. Regardless, again, Barnes makes another assertion that is not supported by the facts. She claims that while they're sitting in the car waiting for midnight, that she sees two patrol cars drive south on Jordan Avenue and then apparently around the block and pulling behind and beside her. We know that's not true and detective Gregory knows it's not true either. Holtzclaw was the first on the scene and he was alone. Holtzclaw’s GPS has him arriving at 12:06a.m. The second officer patrolman, Ivan Venegas, doesn't arrive for two more minutes. When officer Venegas was interviewed, which wasn't until after Holtzclaw had been arrested, he stated that when he heard officer Holtzclaw radio in that he was on a car with multiple subjects, he decided to drive to the area to assist and back him up which puts up another red flag supporting Holtzclaw’s innocence. Why in the world would Holtzclaw put himself out at a location where he plans to sexually assault someone and do it in a way that will most likely cause backup to arrive? At this point the two patrol cars are on scene and have their strobes on. Officer Holtzclaw, who would be the lead officer in this instance, exits his vehicle and walks up to Barnes’s vehicle. This brings up an interesting detail that Barnes and Cooper neglected to share with detective Gregory, but was shared by Barnes’s daughter's 13 year old friend. According to the teen, when Holtzclaw walked up to the car, he shined his flashlight into the car and spotted some pills that were scattered about. Officer Holtzclaw asked what the pills were and the teen said that Barnes produced a prescription bottle in her name and showed it to officer Holtzclaw. According to the teen friend, Holtzclaw then asked the girls their names and wrote down their information. According to officer Venegas when he joined them, he and Holtzclaw both inquired of Barnes and Cooper about their drug usage and drug activity- specifically crack cocaine. At 12:14a.m. Just eight minutes after being stopped, Cooper says that Holtzclaw ran both of their names while they were still in their car together. Cooper came back clear meaning she had no warrants. Barnes however, came back with three minor city cost warrants for destroying property, failure to appear and possession of marijuana. The following is that actual radio transmission. [Inaudible 00:23:41].

                                    Officer Venegas didn't recall the specifics but did think the women were split up at some point as that would have been normal procedure and that they were run shortly after he arrived on scene. Venegas said that he had some small talk with Cooper and interacted with the kids because they were playing and joking around. Officer Venegas said it was cold outside so at some point he told the kids they could go inside. Barnes and Cooper however gave a different version of events to detective Gregory.

                                    [00:25:00]

                                    Both claimed that the presence of the police was scaring the kids. Tabitha went as far as to claim that she told Holtzclaw he was scaring her kids, and that Holtzclaw told them their mother was going to be fine, and that it was he who told them to go inside. Venegas and even the kids themselves contradicted that version of events. Officer Venegas testified at trial that the kids continued to play around and occasionally poked their heads out the front door or the window. He didn't recall them being scared at all. Barnes’s 13 year old daughter and her friend seemed to corroborate this when they each were called going inside looking out the window once or twice, but overall, just hanging out and not paying much attention to what was going on outside. After a brief interview, Officer Vegas released Cooper and she recalls that she went inside the house too. Cooper said that a few minutes later, she looked outside and saw both officers’ still there and Barnes in the backseat of officer Holtzclaw’s patrol car. Officer Venegas recalled that he remembered Holtzclaw talking to him briefly about how the shift was slow and that he was bored and that he was considering taking Barnes to jail on a city warrants. Venegas said that by the end of their conversation Holtzclaw decided to ‘not mess with it.’ At this point, Officer Venegas got back in his patrol car and left. He indicated it was his recollection that officer Holtzclaw left the scene not long after him.

                                    According to GPS data officer Venegas pulled away at 12:21a.m. or just 13 minutes after arriving. Officer Holtzclaw pulled off the stop just eight or nine minutes later at 12:30a.m. It's what happened in those eight to nine minutes that is in dispute. Barnes says she was forced to expose herself and then inappropriately touched. Holtzclaw says nothing of the sort ever occurred. Barnes stated that after Venegas had driven away and Cooper had gone inside the house that Holtzclaw exited his patrol car and opened the passenger door where Barnes was still seated. Even though the temperature that night was in the low 20s Barnes said she was wearing long pyjama bottoms and a white t shirt. In the recorded interview with detective Gregory, Barnes was insistent that she was also wearing a bra.

 

Tabitha Barnes:           The first time I did.

 

Det. Gregory:              The first time you did have a bra?

 

Tabitha Barnes:           Mmh.

 

Det. Gregory:              Oh I thought you said the other day you did not have a bra.

 

Tabitha Barnes:           The first time I had a bra because I lifted it up, lifted the bra up and it wasn't good enough for him.

 

Host:                           However, by the time the trial rolled around, she changed her testimony and then claimed she wasn't wearing a bra at all. That's not the only flip flopping Barnes does with her version of events. You'll recall Barnes told detective Gregory that she was seated in the backseat of Daniel’s patrol car facing out the door with her feet outside the car and on the ground. At the preliminary hearing Barnes said she was seated facing forward with her feet in front of her in the car and on the floorboard. This would have made it much more difficult for her to turn, face Holtzclaw, and expose herself and for him to have lifted each of her breasts with his hands. And wouldn't you know it, once trial rolls around, the prosecution has cleaned that up to and Barnes is once again seated, facing out with her feet on the ground. Barnes stated that Holtzclaw began asking her if she had any drugs hidden on her, to which she replied she did not. Barnes says that's when Holtzclaw asked her, ‘Can you show me that you don't have anything on you?’ Barnes said she knew what that meant and raised her shirt to her belly to which Barnes claims that Holtzclaw responded by saying, ‘No. Do you have anything under your shirt?’ During her recorded interview, Barnes told detective Gregory that she asked Holtzclaw, “Shouldn't you have a female officer come to search me?” However, at the preliminary hearing, when asked by prosecutor Galen Gigger, Barnes replied that she thought he needed a female officer to search her but that she never actually said anything about it. Barnes went on to state that she knows male officers are supposed to call for a female officer because, ‘I used to sell drugs.’ But as Lockwood have it for the prosecution, this contradiction too was corrected by the time the trial rolled around. At trial, she testified that she did indeed tell Holtzclaw he needed a female officer to perform a search upon her. 

 

[00:30:02]

 

When asked why she mentioned this to officer Holtzclaw, Barnes testified, ‘I watch a lot of police shows, I mean a lot.’ Just for quick clarification, it was discussed at trial and it is not a requirement that male Oklahoma City police officers must have a female perform searches upon female suspects. Barnes claims that Holtzclaw next barked out to her, ‘Let me see.’ At this point, Barnes claim she knew she either needed to expose her breasts to Holtzclaw or she was going to jail. So she did just that. Again, while meeting with detective Gregory, Tabitha Barnes is very clear that she was wearing a bra and that she lifted it and her shirt for Holtzclaw.  

 

Tabitha Barnes:           This time, I'm not having the bra on. 

 

Det. Gregory:              On the first time that he picked up your bare breasts. 

 

Tabitha Barnes:           I had it because I just did like this with my shirt and my bra. 

 

Det. Gregory:              And then he had you expose them. 

 

Tabitha Barnes:           Yeah. 

 

Det. Gregory:              So you had to pull your bra up over your breast on the first time. 

 

Tabitha Barnes:           And with my shirt.

 

Det. Gregory:              Is that correct? 

 

Tabitha Barnes:           Yes, with my shirt.

 

Det. Gregory:              I'll make that correction in my report. I misunderstood you. I didn't think you had a bra on the first time. So you did have a bra. He just had you pull it up and then he leaves. 

 

Host:                           However, at trial, she once again changes her story, and in this version, she isn't wearing a bra. Barnes says that because her breasts sag, Holtzclaw asked her if he could lift them up to look underneath for hidden contraband. Holtzclaw then allegedly took one breast in the palm of each hand, lifted and then returned them and let go. According to Barnes, Holtzclaw then asked her how much time she needed to pay off for tickets and ended conversation with, ‘I can help you, if you play by my rules.’ If you read this report on this episode's homepage, you'll notice that every alleged quote from Holtzclaw comes with an exclamation point added by detective Gregory for emphasis. I think it also is a tell-tale sign of detective Gregory's confirmation bias. Tabitha claimed in her recorded meeting with detective Gregory that she took Holtzclaw quote to mean that as long as she gave him sex, he would somehow take care of her tickets. The problem with that line of thought, though, is obvious. Holtzclaw never even talks to her about sex and certainly never asked for sex.

 

Det. Gregory:              Did he ever talk about having sex with you?

 

Tabitha Barnes:           No.

 

Host:                           Like so many of the other little details, this one too, changed at trial and changed to the prosecution's benefit. At trial, Barnes testified that she took that quote to mean that if she did as he asked meaning to expose herself, and then she would be allowed to go inside her house. At that point officer Holtzclaw released Barnes from investigative detention and she went back inside her home and officer Holtzclaw got back in his patrol car and drove away. When Barnes got inside her house, she claims she immediately gathered up her children and told them and Angela Cooper all that it happened regarding Holtzclaw having her expose herself and then touching her. She retold this version at the preliminary hearing and again at trial. Also at trial, Barnes said she specifically told her 11 and 13 year old daughter's that if they see Holtzclaw, they are to run. Like so many other details, Barnes's version doesn't even come close to matching what others say happened that night. Barnes's teen daughter’s 13 year old friend told detective Gregory that Barnes never told her anything about having to expose herself being touched or that she should run when she sees the officer. But the team did say Barnes looked upset when she came inside the house and went to her bedroom. The friend said she felt uncomfortable and called her mother to come get her and she Barnes’s 13 year old daughter left with the mother when she arrived. But even this witnesses version of events leaves out details that would be inconvenient for the prosecution. Angela Cooper told detective Gregory that she too observe Barnes to be upset or angry when she came inside the house. Cooper also confirmed that Barnes never said a word to her or the children at that time about exposing herself being touched or playing by his rules. She did however add, that Barnes became angry and got into an argument with the kids and went to bed.

 

                                    [00:35:00]

 

Angela said she stayed the night and the only comment Barnes made was that Holtzclaw said something about her, ‘Titties.’ When Barnes's 13 year old daughter was interviewed by detective Gregory, she reportedly told him all her mother told her was that Holtzclaw wanted to, ‘Check her.’ And that he should have called for a female officer. The teen daughter did not recall Barnes saying anything about exposing herself, being touched, playing by his rules or to run if she ever saw him. The 13 year old daughter also told detective Gregory she doesn't often stay with her mother. She lives with her father, and at that time of the interview, hadn't seen her mother in a couple of months. The 11 year old daughter though, the one you heard in Episode 11, the one who detective Gregory and prosecutors forward as being there in the car the night of the stop, yet nobody but Barnes has ever put her in the car during the stop. The same 11 year old daughter of Barnes that even detective Gregory called out during their interview for being coached. Well, she claims Barnes did tell her about exposing herself and about being touched. In fact, the 11 year old added that she was told by her mother that Holtzclaw said 

 

Barnes’s daughter:      He didn’t say I would like to see those.

 

Det. Gregory:              What else did your mama said?

 

Barnes’s daughter:      That’s all she told me.

 

Host:                           Even though Barnes has never mentioned that quote, in any police interview, while Angela Cooper told detective Gregory that Barnes looked upset when she came inside the house, and that she did make some brief comment about Holtzclaw saying something about her titties, Cooper specifically told Gregory that Barnes mentioned nothing about being touched, harassed, or exposing herself. Speaking of Angela Cooper, who is she exactly? Well, that's difficult to define. She claims that she's not really a friend of Tabitha Barnes’s, more of an acquaintance but that she was at her home at midnight and eventually stayed the night. Cooper claims she was there as, are you ready for this? A housekeeper. She claims she was staying over all day and night to help Barnes who was not good friends of hers clean her house for an upcoming inspection by section eight housing. But I thought Fluorine Mathis was Barnes's, ‘Housekeeper.’ In fact, Cooper tells detective Gregory that they are so not friends, that after spending the entire day and night cleaning Barnes’s 700 square foot house, she's never even bothered to talk to Barnes ever again, and knew nothing about the alleged allegations against Holtzclaw. And another thing regarding Cooper, at the time she was staying overnight at Barnes's house, she was on 10 years’ probation for you guessed it, possession of drugs and drug proceeds. Sounds exactly how you would describe a drug dealer. Oh, she was also on probation for bogus checks, obstructing an officer, that's the legal term for lying to an officer and harbouring a fugitive. So what do I think really happened? I personally think it's pretty clear. Leading up to this event patrol officer Daniel Holtzclaw had pegged Barnes's home as a major contributor to the distribution and or consumption of illegal narcotics in the immediate area. Specifically, crack cocaine and PCP. Holtzclaw based this belief on police Intel, watching individuals coming and going from the residents while out on patrol and even first-hand information from people he stopped and engaged with on the streets, who said they’d either purchase drugs from individuals in the house or traded merchandise for drugs and a place to do them. And at least to some degree, we know Holtzclaw intuition was spot on. Barnes herself admitted under oath that preliminary hearing to selling drugs and during the criminal trial to using crack cocaine. Additionally, and I'll get to this more when we get to the trial, but Tabitha Barnes literally showed up to Holtzclaw criminal trial high on PCP. We know this because her erratic behaviour caused Judge Timothy Henderson to order her tested on the spot. Furthermore, accuser Fluorine Mathis also admitted to smoking crack cocaine with Barnes in Barnes’s home at Northeast 15th in Jordan Avenue. Holtzclaw also knew that there were children who lived in this suspected crack house.

 

[00:40:00]

 

Just after midnight on February 27th2014, Holtzclaw was patrolling the Spring Lake District. He did drive along Jordan Avenue and past Northeast 16th Street, but he was alone. Holtzclaw noticed a vehicle parked on the street near a suspected crack house and with the headlights on. Holtzclaw activity log and radio dispatches show that it had indeed been a slow shift. He rounds a block in a wide circle, taking nearly three minutes to get back to Northeast16th Street and pull up behind Barnes's vehicle. Seeing that the vehicle is still sitting parked and running and noticing it's occupied by several people, Holtzclaw radios in what he sees and turns on his patrol cars overhead strobe lights. Noting the patrol car behind them, Angela Cooper pulls her car forward and turns into the driveway. Holtzclaw inches forward parking in the street but also blocking in Barnes’s vehicle. Fellow patrol officer Ivan Venegas aware that Holtzclaw was out on a vehicle with several subjects, drives to his location and parks in the street and directly in front of Barnes’s home. He exits his vehicle and watches as Holtzclaw cautiously approaches Barnes's green Sedan. Holtzclaw who by police policy would be the lead officer in this stop lights up the occupants in the car with his flashlight. Holtzclaw notes that there are two adult females in the front seat, Barnes and Cooper and two teenage girls in the backseat; Barnes's 13 year old daughter and the daughter’s 13 year old friend. The 11 year old daughter is not present in the vehicle. Barnes explains that her teen daughter’s having a friend over to spend the night and that they are going to run to the convenience store to get them some ice cream. Holtzclaw is not certain he believes their story and notes at both Barnes and Cooper seem a bit dishevelled and are both wearing pyjama bottoms and T shirts, certainly not dressed for these sub-freezing temperatures. Holtzclaw  then notices what appears to be pills spilled out in the car and asked what they are and who they belong to. Barnes produces a prescription bottle bearing her name and explains they must have fallen out of her purse. Holtzclaw chastises Barnes briefly and has her return the pills to their bottle. Holtzclaw ask and notes the names of all four people in the car. He then calls into dispatch and runs both Barnes's and Cooper's names for warrants. If they come back clear, this will be a quick stop and an opportunity to note the names of the occupants of the house he suspects is dealing drugs.

 

While they wait for dispatch to get back to them, officer Venegas jokes around with the two teens who seemed to have very little interest in what is going on. It's cold out. They've already had Cooper turn off the ignition to the car. So Venegas tells the girls they can go inside to stay warm. After a short pause, Cooper comes back clear, but Barnes shows to have four minor city warrants for unpaid tickets. Holtzclaw decides to use this as an opportunity to gain more Intel on what exactly is going on in Barnes’s home. So we separates Barnes and Cooper, with Barnes being put in the rear driver's side seat of his patrol car and Cooper being placed in Venegas’ patrol car. Both officers question the women individually about drug activity in the area and whether or not they themselves are involved. After a few minutes, Venegas lets Cooper out of his patrol car and she goes inside. Holtzclaw steps out of his patrol car and talks briefly with Venegas, he tells him he's considering taking Barnes to jail on her warrants, because it's been a slow night and he'd like to put some heat on Barnes for her suspected drug activity. But he also knows that he can't just leave the children with a woman that admittedly isn't even a close friend of Barnes. Finding a relative to come and get the kids and booking Barnes into jail could take hours and his shift will be ending soon. So Holtzclaw tells Venegas that he isn't going to mess with it. Venegas drives away and Holtzclaw returns to his patrol car and opens the rear driver side passenger door. He is stern with barns and she doesn't like it. Holtzclaw asked her if she has any drugs on her now. She says no. Holtzclaw instructs her to perform what is known in law enforcement circles as the clasp and shake. It's an unflattering procedure that was mentioned during Holtzclaw interrogation. Basically, it's when a female suspect is instructed to clasp their bra over their shirt, pull their bra away from their breasts and then shake the shirt and bra. The idea being to dislodge any drugs, paraphernalia or weapons that may be hidden under breast tissue or concealed in the suspects undergarments. 

 

[00:45:00]

 

While certainly embarrassing, if done correctly, doesn't expose the suspect’s breast but does often result in uncovering evidence of additional crimes. You probably never heard of this procedure and the Oklahoma City Police Department would probably prefer to keep it that way. But it was considered perfectly acceptable at the time, but naturally, it garnered resentment from those who were often targeted for its use. Finding no drugs and being assured by Barnes that she was going to work to pay on her tickets, Holtzclaw decides to release her to go inside. After about a minute, Holtzclaw then pulls away the continuous shift. Barnes upset that whatever she had actually been planning to do that evening had been interrupted and being more than slightly annoyed by Holtzclaw’s implying that she was a drug user or even a drug dealer. She has no patience for the horse playing kids in her house and immediately gets into a shouting argument with them and then goes to her bedroom and slams the door.

 

Barnes’s teen friend then calls her mom to come and get her and Barnes’s daughter for the remainder of the night. But as you know, from Barnes's recorded interview in Episode 11, her contact with Holtzclaw and her allegations against him don't end here. In fact, Barnes encounters Holtzclaw again on this very same day. As I've pointed out previously, Holtzclaw works an overnight shift that runs from about 4 p.m. to 2 a.m., the following day. So an hour and a half after encountering Barnes, Cooper and the teens, Holtzclaw ends his shift and heads home, only to return to work about eight hours later. Now fast forward, if you will, from 12:30 a.m. on the morning of February 27th2014 to around 10 p.m. that same date, Holtzclaw  has gone home, slept, returned to work and has been patrolling again for about six hours. Tabitha Barnes is returning from the Golden Corral restaurant with their 13 year old daughter, the daughter’s 13 year old friend and a 22 year old woman identified as Raven Nicole Summers. As they were driving North on Jordan Avenue and approaching 15thStreet, they saw a black male walking from the direction of their house, he crossed the street and walk north through the yard of a vacant house. The man appeared to be carrying a retail box and a sack. As they rounded the corner, the man stopped and began waving at them to get their attention and yelling, “Hey, hey, hey.” As they stopped, the man asked if they wanted to buy a microwave and some steaks. At this point Tabitha Barnes and her 13 year old daughter realized the microwave which was brand new and still in the box and the steaks had come from their own home. They looked over and saw their front door wide open and all their lights on. Summers told police that she got out of the car, confronted the man and was yelling, “Hey, that's my microwave.” At that point, the man exclaimed he didn't steal the microwave and started running along North Jordan Avenue while still carrying the microwave and the stakes.

 

Summers and Barnes’s 13 year old daughter started chasing the man. The man dropped the microwave and sack and jumped a fence and started heading west through multiple backyards, while Summers and the teen continued to chase him. After passing through about three backyards, the man turned and headed north towards northeast 16th Terrace. It was while running through a front yard in the 1500 block of Northeast 16th Terrace that Summers says that she was able to grab a hold of the man's jacket to slow him down. At that point, the man turned around and began fighting the 22 and 13 year old females. Summers couldn't recall how many times she hit the man and simply described the event as, ‘A tussle.’ The man somehow was able to break free and turn to escape, but as Lockwood have it and what had to be pretty comical to witness, the man ran full speed straight into a tree and collapsed onto the ground. The man later claims that one of the females was kicking him in the head and that he went in and out of consciousness. Barnes claims that at that point she caught up and helped summers hold the man while neighbours who would come outside after hearing the yelling called 911. At 10:14 p.m. officer Holtzclaw here's a call go out for a disturbance or a fight in the 1500 block of Northeast 16th Terrace and heads that way. It's hard to tell from investigative reports, but it appears Holtzclaw may have been the first officer on the scene. 

 

[00:50:00]

 

According to Daniel Holtzclaw official report, ‘Upon arrival, I observed a black male lying on the ground. The black male later identified as AR that means arrested party; Rodney Lee stated he was running away from several females that threatened to kill him. I observed him to have a bloody lip busted open and blood dripping from his mouth. I placed handcuffs on Lee without incident. I escorted Lee to my patrol vehicle where he voluntarily made the following statements. Lee stated he went over to the residents of the 1500 block of Northeast 15th Street. Lee states he observed a microwave on the front porch. Lee states all of a sudden, several black females confronted me and started to make threats. Lee says he made threats back. Lee got scared and took off running northbound on Jordan from the residence. Lee proceeded to head westbound on northeast 16th Terrace. Lee says during the time he was running, he observed several females chasing him. Lee says someone pushed him down at the area of 1500 northeast 16th Terrace where they began to punch him in the face.’ Not knowing what was going on and Summers claiming Lee had burglarized her home and Lee claiming that the women attacked him for no reason. Holtzclaw placed handcuffs on both Lee and Summers until the details could be sorted out. About that same time, several other officers began arriving on scene. Barnes estimated that as many as 10 officers responded to the 911 call. One of those officers was an officer Chris Millay. Millay noted in his report that when he arrived, he observed two subjects handcuffed and laying on the ground. Summers was eventually on handcuffed and released from investigative detention. Lee was placed into Holtzclaw patrol car where he gave his statement. Officer Millay noted that the suspect was bleeding and complaining of head pains. 

 

Lee explained that he had just been released from the hospital on February 14th, after receiving treatment for bleeding on the brain. He thought that possibly the bleeding had returned as a result of his new injuries. Lee did refuse medical treatment by paramedics and was transported by Officer Millay to Presbyterian Hospital to be checked out before he can be booked into the Oklahoma County Jail. When officers check Lee's background, they found he had served time in prison in 2002, 2008 and 2009 for burglary and the second degree. Barnes testified at trial that at least one female officer responded to the burglary. Barnes said she pulled the officer aside in her kitchen and told her that she had some active warrants. The female officer told her not to worry about it. Barnes was asked at trial why she didn't take that opportunity to tell the female officer that Holtzclaw had been at her home earlier that day, and had made her expose herself and had then touched her breast. Barnes replied at trial with the following quote, “First of all, I was we was trying to get, you know, get our food back and all of that. When Spike walked in my house, he eye contact me, I hurry up and turn my head.” Barnes went on to say that she was too terrified to tell the female officer. Didn't think anyone would believe her and she was just trying to put it all behind her. Officers noted in their reports that Barnes’s front door had been kicked in and the doorframe was splintered into pieces. Summers told officers that several food items were missing. The house appeared to have been rummaged through and then a television in one of the bedrooms had been laid on the floor as if Lee was going to come back later and take it. Summer said she did not know or recognized Lee and then signed the citation for assault and battery against him. 

 

An OC PD Captain took photos of the crime scene and where the microwave was dropped. The microwave was returned and Summer said she would be calling the landlord the next morning to fix the front door. I have to interject here and I've got to be honest, I don't really know what the truth is or what it even means one way or the other, but just like the presence of Angela Cooper seemed out of place in the early morning incident, the friend who really wasn't a friend, but allegedly spent the day and night helping Tabitha Barnes to clean her 700 square foot house and then allegedly never talked to her again. Well, the presence or identity of Raven Nicole Summers seems just as mysterious. In police reports from the burglary, Summers is clearly identified as the victim and living in Barnes's home. 

 

[00:55:00]

 

In fact, in officer Bouyat’s official incident report, he specific typically identifies Tabitha Barnes as, “The victim’s stepmother.” And goes on to state, “It should be known the victim and all involved parties except the 13 year old friend lived at the house.” That seems clear enough, Summers is Tabitha Barnes’s step daughter, but then when you fast forward to Daniel Holtzclaw criminal trial, and I'm reading from page 1873 of the jury trial transcript.

 

Galen Gigger:              One of those people named Raven Summers? 

 

Tabitha Barnes:           Yes.

 

Galen Gigger:              Is Raven Summers, who is she to you? 

 

Tabitha Barnes:           She was my ex-girlfriend.

 

Host:                           Then in an excerpt from page 1876. Prosecutor Galen Geiger makes this comment, “I know you were in a relationship with Ms. Summers.” So, was she Barnes’s step daughter or was she Barnes’s ex-girlfriend. Regardless, why was she listed as the victim and the one who was interviewed by police if the home was actually rented my Tabitha Barnes and the property they’re in owned by Barnes, and if Summers lives there and is Barnes’s a step daughter/ex-girlfriend, where was she just hours earlier when Barnes was with Cooper parked next to, instead of in front of their own home at midnight in sub-freezing temperatures. Lastly, if Officer Daniel Holtzclaw had really committed some sort of sexual assault against Tabitha Barnes just hours earlier, an assault that so upset her, she warned her children to run if they ever saw him again yet none of those children remember her them telling them that, why would she not have mentioned something to the female officer that told her not to worry about her warrant? Was she really too, ‘Terrified to tell anyone?’ Regardless if Holtzclaw had committed a sexual assault, why in the world would he arrive on scene with Barnes and Summers holding down their burglar and then risk pissing both Barnes and Summers off by placing Summers in handcuffs and having her lying on the ground until he sorted it all out. But the craziness and allegations don't end there; Barnes is going to come into contact with Holtzclaw at least two more times. And those encounters are eventually going to result in allegations that Holtzclaw broke into Barnes’s home, harassed a boyfriend of Barnes, forced her to expose herself again and then stalked her, but I'm going to save those details for the next episode.

 

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to subscribe and give us a five star review. If you'd like to know more and see many of the files used to compile this episode, please visit this season's homepage at holtzclawtrial.com. You can also follow updates on our Facebook page at in defence of Daniel Holtzclaw or on Twitter at Holtzclaw trial. Bates investigates season one, in defence of Daniel Holtzclaw is researched, produced and edited by me, Brian Bates. This has been a bug stomper production.

END

EPISODE 13

Episode 13 ׀Daniel Holtzclaw: Tabitha Barnes Allegations Scrutinized (Part 2)

 

[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE]

[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE ENDS]

 

Timestamp: The following episode contains investigative events which occurred August 14 through August 17, 2014.

 

00:49

Host:Welcome back to Bates Investigates, Season One: In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw.  I am your host, private investigator and original member of Daniel Holtzclaw's jury trial criminal defense team, Brian Bates.  This is episode thirteen and in this episode I will be wrapping up the Tabitha Barnes allegations.  In episode twelve we discussed how forty-one year old Northeast Oklahoma City resident, Tabitha Barnes, alleged that then Oklahoma City Police Officer, Daniel Holtzclaw, had been harassing her and that during the early morning hours of what was later alleged to have been February 27th of 2014, he had coerced her into exposing herself and then he allegedly lifted each of her bare breasts with his hands.  You'll probably also recall that many of the details of Holtzclaw's alleged crimes changed with each telling and retelling of the story by Barnes, her children, or individuals who were allegedly at the scene at that time.  At the end of episode twelve, I told you that Barnes' allegations didn't end with that early morning traffic stop on February 27th.  In this episode, I'm going to detail additional encounters with Barnes that she alleges resulted in even more criminal activities by Daniel Holtzclaw.  Barnes told Oklahoma City Police Sex Crimes Detective Rocky Gregory that she didn't come into contact with Officer Holtzclaw again until March 25th of 2014.  That's twenty-six days later.  Barnes estimated that at about 9:30pm she was driving home along Jordan Avenue.  In the car with her was her eleven year old daughter and seven year old son.  When they pulled up to their house, they saw a newer model Oklahoma City patrol car stopped in front of their home.  The patrol car was facing east towards the corner of Northeast Fifteenth and Jordan.  Barnes said she pulled over and parked on Jordan Avenue, this would have been to the east side of her property line.

 

03:07

At trial she testified that she couldn't see an officer but that "I already knew who it was.  It was Spike."  I find this statement odd because she's admittedly only encountered Holtzclaw on one other day and he was with other officers and that was almost a month ago.  Barnes said as she was getting out of her car she noticed something else, a black male lying on the ground, in her yard, very near a utility pole.  At about this point, she says that’s when Officer Holtzclaw made his presence known.   Barnes asked if he was there about the man lying on the ground.  She said Holtzclaw kicked at the man to get his attention and told him to move along.  Barnes told Gregory that she next replied to Holtzclaw "what is it now?", but at trial that detail changed too.  According to the trial transcript (page 1,789) Barnes stated "here you go again". Barnes said she was next directed to sit in the driver's side rear passenger seat of Holtzclaw’s patrol car.  She says her eleven and seven year old children stood outside in the yard.  After getting in the patrol car, Holtzclaw asked Barnes if she had taken care of her city tickets and warrants (the ones he had pointed out to her almost a month ago) to which Barnes replied no.  Barnes says that's when Holtzclaw ran her through the police database for additional warrants.  She said after she came back with the same city tickets, Holtzclaw next asked her if she had been selling any drugs or if she had any drugs on her.  Barnes said she exclaimed "No! If I sold drugs why would I sit in a cold house waiting on DHS to pay my gas?"  Barnes said she then questioned Officer Holtzclaw as to why he was always by himself whenever he came around.  This too is another odd assertion by Barnes in my opinion, and one not supported by the evidence.  Remember, she has only encountered Holtzclaw two times previously, and both of those were on the same day, and each time he had other police officers with him.  Barnes also testified at trial that Holtzclaw's detainment of her "took longer.  I mean, you know it was longer before he proceeded to do what he did".  This, as with so many of Barnes' quotes at trial, seems to be nothing more than bolstering and is not supported by the facts.

 

05:51

I'll get to the known timeline in just a minute, but I can tell you right now, Holtzclaw was not with Barnes for any more than seven to eight minutes.  Barnes next told Detective Gregory that Holtzclaw exited his patrol car and stood very near her in the open driver's side passenger door.  Holtzclaw then allegedly told Barnes he needed to "check her for drugs".  Barnes says she was wearing a white t-shirt, black leggings, and no underwear.  As with the February 27th incident a month earlier, there is some confusion as to whether or not Barnes was wearing a bra.  When she originally met with Detective Gregory she was clear she did not have a bra on.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Tabitha Barnes: Which, I didn’t have a bra on at the time.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You did?

 

Tabitha Barnes: I didn’t.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Didn’t, okay.  Okay, this time you had no bra…

 

Tabitha Barnes: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So your breasts are exposed.  

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host:However, at trial she testifies that "Yes, I did have on a bra that second time. Yes, I did."  When she met with Detective Gregory, Barnes claims there was no direct command to expose herself, that she simply assumed what Holtzclaw meant and proceeded to lift her shirt and bra.  But, as I'm sure you could see it coming, by the time trial rolls around, this detail too has changed and in the prosecution’s favor.  Barnes testified at trial that Officer Holtzclaw stated "You got anything under your shirt?  You gonna let me see?”  That's when Barnes alleges that she lifted her shirt and bra, once again exposing her breasts. Holtzclaw then turned his attention towards Barnes' pants and asked if she had anything hidden in them.  Barnes testified at trial that she pulled her leggings out from her waistband but that motion also exposed her vagina.  When asked at trial to clarify how she was seated, the details once again changed from her original statement.  You'll recall when she met with Detective Gregory she stated she was seated facing forward with her legs and feet inside the patrol car.  

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, was your legs faced out here?

 

Tabitha Barnes: No, they were still in the car.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

08:11

Host: However, at trial she claimed she was facing out of the car with legs facing Holtzclaw and her feet on the ground.  Defense Attorney Scott Adams challenged this assertion at trial and played back that part of Detective Gregory's recorded interview to refresh Barnes' memory.  To this Barnes reluctantly changed her story back to the original version: facing forward, feet inside the door.  Making it very difficult for her to have pulled out her waistband far enough to expose her vagina to Holtzclaw, who was standing to her side and outside the car.  Barnes told Detective Gregory that Holtzclaw next told her he had just been inside and checked her house for drugs and he knew that there were none inside the house.  That's a little different order of events than she ended up testifying to at trial, where she claimed Holtzclaw made this admission right after he put her into his car. Whatever the order, Barnes said that Holtzclaw told her he encountered a black male who was sleeping inside her home. At this point Barnes says she was allowed to get out of the patrol car, but as she was exiting Officer Holtzclaw commented that he wanted to make sure his twenty dollar bill was still in the backseat.  Barnes said she knew that she too had a twenty dollar bill.  In fact, in her original interview, she claims it was crumpled up inside her bra.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory: What did he say about the twenty? He said something.

 

Tabitha Barnes: He said, ‘Don’t touch...’  Uh, ‘Make sure my twenty dollars is back there.’ And I was, like, what, I said, ‘Nah.’ I said, ‘I had twenty dollars too.’ Cause I had it in my bra. 

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

09:55

Host:Barnes said she was confused and wondered for a moment if the twenty dollars he was referencing was hers.  When she looked back, sure enough, there was a twenty dollar bill sitting in the seat.  She asked Holtzclaw what that was all about.  He reportedly replied, ‘I have my reasons.’  At this point, Barnes says she went inside the house and Holtzclaw got back into his patrol car and drove away.  Once inside she said she spoke to the male that had previously been sleeping and woken up by Holtzclaw when he was searching the house.  That man has been identified as fifty-one year old Terry Wayne Williams and he was Barnes' boyfriend at the time.  That concludes what is referred to in the investigative reports as the second incident.  Though technically the third encounter Barnes has had with Holtzclaw over the course of two different dates, about a month apart.  The third and final incident occurred the very next evening.  Barnes estimated at about 4:30pm she was in the kitchen of her house making dinner for the kids when there was a knock at her door. Remarkably enough, just like when she saw a police car in front of her home and just somehow instinctively knew that it was Holtzclaw, Barnes told Detective Gregory that she also instinctively knew that that knock was Holtzclaw’s too.  When she opened the door, Officer Holtzclaw was standing on her porch.  Barnes told Detective Gregory that Holtzclaw said to her "Can I come in?" to which Barnes replied no.  Holtzclaw then allegedly stated ‘So, you are not going to let me in! I need to search your house for drugs.’  However, once again, at trial Barnes testified to something never before previously mentioned.  And I think it was a critical mistake on her part that she made this admission.  On page 1,882 of the jury trial transcript, Barnes testified that upon opening her front door, Officer Holtzclaw stated "One of my informants told me you sold crack cocaine today".  Barnes goes on to say that Holtzclaw says he encountered someone that said they had just bought a twenty dollar rock of crack cocaine from someone in her house.  Barnes claims she argued with Holtzclaw and told him "You were just in my house last night, did you see any—anything considering drugs, marijuana, cocaine or anything?"  Barnes once again testified she asserted the claim that if she sold drugs why would she be inside a cold house waiting for the government to pay her gas bill.  

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Tabitha Barnes:Said, ‘If I sold drugs do you think I’d be in a cold house waiting on DHS to pay my rent—I mean pay my, my gas bill?!’

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

12:49

Host:Holtzclaw then allegedly again stated he wanted permission to search her home.  Barnes said that she became frightened and called her sixty-five year old mother who lives in Texas.  Barnes stated that while Officer Holtzclaw was claiming she was selling drugs and asking to look inside her home that Holtzclaw asked to speak to Barnes' mother on the phone.  Barnes handed the phone to Holtzclaw, who allegedly proceeded to tell Barnes' mother that her daughter had city tickets and warrants and that she needed to come down here and get her.  The conversation allegedly ended with Holtzclaw mumbling something as he was walking off and then exclaimed "You hadn't paid those fucking tickets. I'll be back!"  And at that he drove away.  In Detective Gregory's report, which I have posted to this episode's homepage at holtzclawtrial.com, Barnes claims that preceding this encounter she personally witnesses Officer Holtzclaw to drive by her house every day and that Holtzclaw continued to harass her, her boyfriend, Terry Williams, and even a co-worker of her boyfriends.  However, this directly contradicts her trial testimony. 

 

From page 1,890 of the jury trial transcript:

            Tabitha Barnes - "Well, the day after that my sister came and picked me and my children        up. I boarded my—I boarded the house up like I had moved. Went to Austin, Texas for            three months thinking that, you know, maybe they catch him, it was all over." 

            Prosecutor - "So you left the house?" 

            Barnes - "Yes, I did." 

            Prosecutor - "Why?" 

            Barnes - "The fear of me and my children." 

            Prosecutor - "Are you telling the jury and are you telling me that you left because of     what this officer kept doing?" 

            Barnes - "Yeah, because I have—I have a fifteen year old and a twelve year old child. What if I wasn't home one day and he did that to them?" 

 

She repeats more than once that her sister came to town the very next day and she boarded up her house to make it look like she had moved for good and fled to Texas for three months thinking that would either fool Holtzclaw into leaving her alone or that he'd somehow be found out and caught.  But that's not at all what Barnes told Detective Gregory in his original recorded interview.  Initially she tells Gregory that she left May 1st and went to her mother’s for three months.  That’s thirty-six days after the incident where she says she left the very next day.

 

15:27[RECORDING BEGINS]

Tabitha Barnes:No, I said in May.  Me.  In May, I left, like, May 1st.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Oh you left?

 

Tabitha Barnes: And I never seen him.  I never seen him again.  And then…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Where did yo—oh, where did you go? Down to your momma’s?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Yeah, I left for three months.

 

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host:And then later, in that same conversation, Barnes clearly says she went to take care of her mother in Texas for one month.  Something she said she had to do.  She never says she left town because of Holtzclaw.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Tabitha Barnes: I mean, when I had to go to move to Texas for that month to help my mom, um, that’s probably what saved me with that man.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host:Barnes didn't move for three months.  She left for a month.  And it wasn't to live with her sister to hide out from Holtzclaw.  It was to take care of her ailing mother.  In Detective Gregory's report he notes that "this is the last time she dealt with him".  But that too is not at all what she said, and Detective Gregory knows it.  In fact, he chooses to simply ignore it because he knows it's a complete lie.  I don't know if you caught it when you listened to this interview the first time with Barnes back in episode eleven, but Barnes claims that Holtzclaw came back yet again.  Barnes said that "a month ago he came too."  Here it is in her own words.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Tabitha Barnes: Matter of fact, I wanna say, like, a month ago, he came too.  But I didn’t open the door, I was looking at him through the window.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Was he in uniform?

 

Tabitha Barnes:  Mm hmm.  And the last stop he made, I can’t quote what date it was, but he was in the old—the ne—the older car.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host:But, once again, there's a big problem with Barnes’ assertions.  Barnes was interviewed on August 17th of 2014.  Daniel Holtzclaw was placed on administrative leave on June 18th. There's no way he could have gone to Barnes' home within even the previous two months, and he certainly could not have visited her home in the older style Oklahoma City patrol car, as he hasn't driven one of those in quite some time.  Detective Gregory knew that Barnes’ statement was a blatant lie and it could be proven a lie.  So, did you catch what he did?  Or better yet, what he didn't do?  He knew she gave too much detail there, so he simply chose to ignore it.  As if it was never said it.  You'll soon find this is a very disturbing pattern of Detective Rocky Gregory. 

 

18:12

Barnes went on to mention that Holtzclaw continued to drive past her home and harass her.  But wait a minute, I thought she moved the very next day.  She even makes mention of Officer Holtzclaw harassing her boyfriend, Terry Williams, and one of Williams' co-workers while they were in front of her house.  She said Holtzclaw made derogatory and homophobic comments towards Williams' friend, a Mr. Jesse Hawkins, because Holtzclaw felt that Hawkins was wearing eye liner.  And of course, like so many other things she has testified to, none of this holds up under close scrutiny.  Before I give you my thoughts on what actually happened, I want to go over some contradictory testimony from Barnes' own eleven year old daughter and Barnes' boyfriend, Terry Williams.  When the eleven year old took the stand at trial she admitted that the very first time she ever saw Officer Holtzclaw was during this March 25th incident involving the man lying in the front yard.  In fact, it was actually very unsettling to be in court and listen to this young lady as it became painfully obvious she had been coached to the point that she didn't even know which way was up.  She initially denied even talking to Detective Gregory in his car.  The very interview I played for you in episode eleven. Then she literally took the March 25th event and broke it up into what she thought were two distinctly different events and then tried to attribute some of those details to the February 27th traffic stop.  As Detective Gregory pointed out when he first spoke to the young girl, she was simply retelling what she had been told by her mother and she had obviously been told to claim she had seen things first hand that, in fact, she had not. If I tried to go into much detail about what she testified to, it would only confuse things greatly, but these are the main points we can get from her trial testimony.  The daughter refers to Barnes' boyfriend, Terry Williams, as her stepdad, but claims he has only ever stayed overnight at their house one time.  This becomes unnervingly important in just a minute.

 

20:30

She claims she has seen encounters with her mother and Holtzclaw on four or five occasions, yet we know she has only seen Holtzclaw one time face to face on the March 25th incident and she claims she overheard Holtzclaw the next day on the March 26th incident at her front door.  The only thing she seems to agree with Barnes' version of events on March 25th is that Barnes was placed in the back of Holtzclaw's patrol car.  The eleven year old disputes the order or even the existence of virtually everything else. She states the conversation about Holtzclaw going inside the house and encountering the man who was sleeping was one of the first things said before Barnes was placed in the patrol car.  This is the opposite of what Barnes testified to. In fact, the little girl forwards a direct quote that was never even referenced by her mother.  The girl stated that when her mother, Tabitha Barnes, asked why Holtzclaw was inside their home, that Holtzclaw replied "Because I'm the law and I can do that."  She claims she was on the front porch almost the entire time, yet never saw anything inappropriate.  The daughter testified that she never actually saw Holtzclaw drive by their home, that instead that was something her mother told her.  Lastly, while under cross examination by Defense Attorney Scott Adams, the young lady admitted that she doesn't even remember Officer Holtzclaw coming back and at their door on March 26th.  Barnes' mother also testified at trial.  Though her testimony was brief, she did corroborate Barnes' testimony that she called her mother while Officer Holtzclaw stood at the front door.  Barnes' mother stated that she told her daughter that she didn't have to let Holtzclaw inside her home to search it for drugs without a search warrant.  That said, Barnes' mother did contradict her daughter when she claimed that she did not speak directly to Holtzclaw on the phone.  Instead she said she simply overheard Holtzclaw talking to Tabitha and couldn't recall what she heard her daughter saying.  In Detective Gregory's report he notes that the mother said Holtzclaw was bullying her daughter, but at trial she actually softened that a bit when she claimed that the conversation was "most likely unfriendly".

 

22:59

Lastly, Barnes’ mother also testified that she had been told by her daughter over the summer that Holtzclaw had been harassing her, accusing her of selling drugs, and had touched her inappropriately.  But, keep in mind over the summer would mean after Barnes had been approached by Detective Gregory and after Holtzclaw had been arrested and the allegations and his face had been shown all over the news.  Not before, when the incidents were actually allegedly occurring.  Last to testify in the case was the boyfriend, Terry Wayne Williams.  You'll remember he was the one sleeping inside of Barnes' home and was awakened by Holtzclaw.  Williams testified that he was certain the front door to the house was shut.  However, he also testified that he has no idea who all was in the house when he went to sleep and has no idea when they left, so he couldn't know if the door was indeed closed.  Additionally, he testified he couldn't remember if the door had been repaired from the burglary weeks earlier.  According to Williams, he was sleeping in Barnes' bedroom; however, you may recall that Barnes said he was sleeping in her seven year old’s bedroom.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory:So he was in your bedroom?

 

Tabitha Barnes: Actually, the, uh, yeah.  My son’s room.  Sleep.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host:This may seem like an insignificant contradiction, but I don't think that it is, and I don’t think you will either in just a minute.  There's another key descriptor of Mr. Terry Wayne Williams that Barnes, Williams, and even Oklahoma City Sex Crimes Detective Rocky Gregory conveniently and intentionally left out of all of their initial statements and reports.  Terry Wayne Williams is not only a convicted felon, he is a registered sex offender.  A sex offender who admittedly has been convicted at least seven times for failure to properly register or otherwise follow the rules of sex offender registration.  In fact, Williams had only recently been released from prison on one of those convictions when all of these alleged incidents occurred. 

 

25:13

Nowhere, and I do mean nowhere, will you find a single mention of Williams being a sex offender in any police report in this case.  But Barnes knows her boyfriend is a sex offender and she allows him to sleep in her seven year old son's bedroom anyway.  Williams also knows that he's not supposed to be staying over at Barnes’ residence.  Not only is she a convicted felon with young children in her home, but her home is located only a thousand feet from both a school and a public park.  Barnes testified that Williams stayed at her home about every other day.  Barnes' daughter, the one that had obviously been coached, she testified "He only stayed there one day, one time”.  Williams, on the other hand, testified that he only stayed there on the weekends, but that was a lie because the day he was found sleeping in Barnes' house?  Well, that was a Tuesday.  And Barnes said Williams was also at the house sleeping when Holtzclaw returned the next day, a Wednesday.  Regardless, Williams claims that he was woken up by Holtzclaw nudging him and standing over him with his flashlight shining in his face.  Williams next testified that Officer Holtzclaw had him walk outside, where he ran him through the police database.  Williams claims that Holtzclaw never even mentioned his sex offender status, which would have stood out in the police records.  He also never makes mention of Officer Holtzclaw asking for or checking his ID. I personally think Williams is lying and intentionally omitting these facts.  Why?  Because he and Barnes constantly avoid bringing up his sex offender status.  So, they simply omit anything where his registration was ever brought up.  Williams did mention that Officer Holtzclaw said this was a bad crime area and insinuated Barnes' home was a dope house.  Williams testified he was then allowed to go back inside the home and Holtzclaw told him that he was going to harass him every time he saw him in the area.  Here are a couple of other interesting details that were brought out during cross examination.  

 

27:26

For one, Williams testified under oath that he somehow had no idea his girlfriend, Tabitha Barnes, the one he apparently stayed the night with on a regular basis, did any drugs whatsoever.  This is odd considering Tabitha Barnes admits to doing drugs, admits to selling drugs, admits to allowing people to come over to her house to do drugs, and literally seems to be high every single time she makes an appearance in this investigation, even including when she testified at trial.  Williams also testified, and I think this is very important, that he had never heard anything about Officer Holtzclaw bothering or harassing or being inappropriate with Barnes prior to that date and claims he first learned of any issues or concerns only after Barnes returned home and encountered Holtzclaw in the front yard on that day.  And even then, his story is vastly different than Barnes'.  Williams testified that he had been told that Barnes was made to "lift her dress" and expose herself.  Not once has a dress been mentioned by anyone other than Williams.  Like I said previously, Williams mentions Barnes boarding up her house, but he testified it was only one or two windows and he thought she did it because they were broken. He also says she only left for about a month, not three months and he mentions nothing about Barnes and her children going into hiding.  The last thing Williams testified to was this supposed harassment after he first met Holtzclaw and when Holtzclaw woke him up sleeping in a young boy's bed.  Williams testified that on April 8th he was sitting in a truck, not in front of but a couple of houses down from Barnes' home.  In the truck with him was Mr. Jesse Hawkins.  A man Williams described as a friend, co-worker, and previously registered sex offender.  The two were parked in the street and drinking when Officer Holtzclaw pulled up on them and ran them both through the police database. Williams claims he thought Holtzclaw was making good on his threat to harass him.  Williams claims that he called his friend a derogatory word that he “couldn't say in open court”.  I'm going to assume he is referring to when Barnes claimed that Holtzclaw called Mr. Hawkins “a faggot”.  Under cross examination, Williams admitted that the stop was quick, their names were run and Holtzclaw left.  Williams also indicated at trial that another officer may have actually been with Holtzclaw during this encounter.

 

30:10

When Jessie Hawkins was interviewed, he seemed to corroborate some of Williams’ testimony. He said they were indeed in the truck, and they were stopped and ran by Officer Holtzclaw.  As for the 'faggot' comment Barnes and Williams claimed Holtzclaw made, Hawkins didn't recall that at all.  Instead, he said Holtzclaw was "rude, but nothing out of the ordinary".  Specifically, he said that nothing inappropriate was said to him.  Hawkins did confirm that Officer Holtzclaw mentioned that this was a high crime area for drugs and prostitution.  Hawkins stated that Williams told him that Officer Holtzclaw had been at the house before and had been harassing people in the area, but gave no specific details.  The overall theme of the prosecution is that twenty-seven year old Officer Daniel Holtzclaw for some reason targeted Barnes, forty-one, after encountering her, along with Officer Venegas, back on February 27, 2014.  And that after Venegas pulled away from the scene Holtzclaw decided to have Barnes expose her breasts in public and then fondled her exposed breasts.  This with his patrol car strobe lights on, and in front of a house full of potential witnesses, and within full view of anyone else that happened out to be outside, driving by, or looking out their windows.  And I'll remind you, there has never been a single independent eyewitness ever produced by the prosecution.  Regardless, the prosecution's theory is that after that first contact, Officer Holtzclaw was one of several officers that responded to Barnes' home, only hours later, due to a burglary.  However, as Detective Gregory noted in his official report, "There was no incident due to other officers and family there".  The inference is clear.  Detective Gregory is saying that had other officers and family not been there at that burglary call, that Holtzclaw would have sexually assaulted Barnes again for a second time.  Yet, there is absolutely no evidence to back that up.  The prosecution also alleges that on the March 25th incident that Holtzclaw was only on the scene to sexually assault Barnes' again, he had no legal cause to enter her home without permission, and that even though Williams was allegedly still on the property, Holtzclaw decided to have Barnes once again publicly expose herself to an untold number of potential witnesses.  Prosecutor Gayland Gieger even argued that Holtzclaw didn't arrest Williams or report Williams being in Barnes' home because Holtzclaw didn't want investigators talking to Williams and running the risk he would tell them about Holtzclaw's illegal behavior.  The prosecution even used the fact Officer Holtzclaw approached Williams and Hawkins thirteen days later as proof Holtzclaw was making good on his promise to harass Williams and keep him quiet about the fact Holtzclaw was sexually assaulting his girlfriend.

 

33:16

Now, admittedly that's a lot to take in, but I still need to share what I think the evidence actually supports in this case. I think it's been well established by everyone's testimony that Officer Daniel Holtzclaw fully believed that Tabitha Barnes was selling crack cocaine out of her home and allowing drug addicts in the area to use her home as some sort of a shooting gallery.  Literally every person questioned by law enforcement or the prosecution has admitted Holtzclaw repeatedly made these allegations. Allegations that are supported by Barnes' own testimony that she does crack cocaine, marijuana and PCP; that she allows others to do those drugs on her property; and she even admitted to selling drugs in her past, and has gone to prison for that very crime.  Additionally, Holtzclaw has encountered friends who are not really friends of Barnes (i.e. Mathis, Cooper, Summers and others) that come and go from Barnes’ home and have criminal histories that often include drug use, prostitution and/or drug dealing.  These so-called friends, by their own testimony, appear at Barnes' home, often stay the night, but then allegedly never talk to Barnes again.  With these suspicions and all this traffic coming and going from Barnes' home, Holtzclaw does exactly what we would expect any pro-active patrol officer to do.  He initiates as much contact as possible on the suspects.  That first opportunity came in the early morning hours of February 27, 2014, and I gave you my thoughts on what I actually think happened on that date.  I won't go over that incident again, but feel free to review my thoughts from episode twelve. Fast forward from February 27, 2014 to March 25th of that same year, some twenty-six days later.  Now, before I get to Holtzclaw's encounter with Barnes and Williams, there are a couple of other encounters we know Holtzclaw had on that same day while on patrol.

 

35:26

Notably, at 4:50pm, he encounters Florene Mathis, but she gives him her alias, Lynn Gibson.  We know this because he calls her in to have her information verified.  And we know, because of his patrol car GPS that he stopped Mathis, right by Barnes' suspected drug house at Northeast Fifteenth and Jordan.  By Mathis' own testimony, Holtzclaw stopped her, asked her about her drug activities, ran her name, and then let her go.  Mathis doesn't allege anything inappropriate happened during that stop.  But, as we know, she will eventually claim she was assaulted at a later date.  Then, a few hours later, at 9:04pm, Holtzclaw stopped a woman by the name of Carla Johnson at Northeast Fifteenth and Kelham.  That's just a block away from the suspected drug house of Tabitha Barnes at Northeast Fifteenth and Jordan.  Again, she claims nothing happened during that stop, but as with Mathis, she eventually claims she was sexually assaulted during a stop two months later.  Based on these two stops and Holtzclaw's GPS records, we know he was heavily patrolling this area and questioning individuals near Barnes' home that he thought were engaging in drugs and/or prostitution.  Just a few minutes after he finished up the Carla Johnson stop, Holtzclaw's patrol car is recorded via GPS in front of Barnes' home at Northeast Fifteenth and Jordan.  It's 9:39pm.  He calls in to dispatch that he's at a drug house.  Holtzclaw, not only suspect Barnes' home is responsible for drug activities, but he knows from the burglary just a few weeks prior that Barnes' home is also the target of brazen thieves.  As he pulls up in front of her home, he notices Barnes' green Saturn is not present in the drive way, none of the house's lights are on, and the front door? It’s wide open.  You'll recall, in the burglary, the suspect targeted Barnes' home while she was gone and kicked in the front door to gain entry.  Holtzclaw radios in at 9:42pm that there is a "open door" on a suspected crack house and he would advise on the need for backup.  Holtzclaw exits his patrol car, approaches the house, and notices the door is open and damaged.  Officer Holtzclaw knocks and announces himself, ‘Police Officer, is anyone inside?’ Getting no response he takes out his flashlight and looks about the house for signs of a burglary.  You'll recall, it's a very small home and it only takes Holtzclaw just a minute to search its three or four rooms.

 

38:14

When he looks into what is obviously a child's bedroom, he sees an adult back male sleeping on the bed.  He nudges the man to waken him.  Holtzclaw asks who the man is, and most likely for some ID.  The man identifies himself as Terry Wayne Williams, the boyfriend of Tabitha Barnes.  If Williams provided Officer Holtzclaw with his ID then it would have been stamped Sex Offender across the front.  But, even if he didn't have his ID, we know Holtzclaw had him step outside and ran him through the police database.  That database had Williams highlighted as a registered sex offender.  Records show that Holtzclaw ran Williams at 9:46pm. That’s seven minutes after arriving on scene or just four minutes after he entered the home.  Allowing time to confront Williams and get his basic story that would have left very little time for Holtzclaw to have searched the residence, which in my mind shows his intent was exactly what he said it was.  He was there to make sure that a burglary wasn’t happening again.  Williams claims Holtzclaw never mentioned his sex offender status, a claim I highly doubt, but it does follow Williams’ basic MO to not mention his offender status when discussing the case to anyone, because he knows he's in violation and has already been convicted of not following the rules several times.  Williams testified that Holtzclaw let him go back inside, where he retreated to a bedroom and went back to sleep.  To me, this only makes sense if indeed Holtzclaw confronted him about his sex offender status and Williams explained to him that his probationary requirements did not prohibit him from being around kids.  It was also evident in Williams' testimony at trial that he is very savvy as to the nuances of registration requirements.  I believe he not only told Holtzclaw that he could be around kids, but that he could also be at Barnes' residence, but just couldn't stay for more than two days at a time without reporting that address to authorities.  Despite what many people think, there are many different requirements that are applied in different ways to registered sex offenders.  It's not just one set of rules for everyone.  Holtzclaw knows that reality too and knew he may not be protected by the law if he forced Williams to leave the residence.

 

40:43

Detective Gregory and Prosecutor Gayland Gieger made a big deal at trial out of the fact Holtzclaw didn't report Williams to anyone for possible sex offender registration violations.  However, Detective Gregory and Prosecutor Gieger also had to admit they themselves never reported Williams' possible violations and Detective Gregory, who intentionally left any mention of Williams' sex offender status out of all of his reports, he testified that he knew Williams was lying about where he lived and therefore was in violation, but he simply chose to ignore it.  I think based on his conversation, Holtzclaw reluctantly allowed Williams to go back inside the residence, but let him know he'd be keeping an eye out for him and he would take every opportunity to make him feel unwelcome.  That said, I don't believe that Williams went back inside and went right back to sleep.  Why?  Because Barnes was run through the police database at 9:53pm.  That's just seven minutes after Williams was run.  That means Williams couldn't have been inside the house for more than one or two minutes before Barnes arrived at her house with the kids and they were sent inside.  Williams would have known Barnes was home and I find it hard to believe he wouldn't have at the very least been watching out the window to see what was going on.  I'm guessing Barnes pulled up either as Williams was still outside or had literally just stepped back inside the house.  This leaves the question of the black male allegedly lying in the front yard. Are we to believe that Holtzclaw pulled up, called in a drug house, called in an open door, searched that drug house, ran into Williams, brought Williams outside, ran him through the database, but never mentions or checks or runs the black male allegedly lying in the front yard? I have no idea if that man actually even exists, but there's certainly no evidence he does and it doesn't fit with the events we do know occurred.

 

42:53

Regardless, Barnes arrives and Williams never comes back outside.  Holtzclaw most likely did what you would expect.  He let Barnes know that he came by, saw that her car wasn’t there, saw that the lights weren’t on, saw that her front door was wide open, noticed the front door was damaged, and so he did a simple walk through to see if her home had been burglarized.  That's when he probably told her he encountered Williams and asked if he was indeed her boyfriend, and also let her know he knew Williams was a sex offender. Holtzclaw probably didn't have anything nice to say about the fact that Williams, the sex offender, was sleeping in her seven year old son’s bed.  I can reasonably see Barnes taking offense to this and words being exchanged.  Holtzclaw most likely shut things down by asking her if she had taken care of her tickets and letting her know he stopped other individuals earlier that day that he suspects may have been engaging in drug activity at her home (i.e. Mathis, Johnson and possibly others).  Holtzclaw then ran Barnes for any new, more serious warrants that would have necessitated him taking her to jail.  We know he did this at 9:53pm.  With no new warrants and no reason to remain on scene, Holtzclaw released Barnes to go inside her home.  He then called back in to dispatch at 10:00pm, just seven minutes after running Barnes, and said he had done a protective sweep (thus, admitting he had gone inside the home) and that everything was fine.  It makes no sense that Officer Holtzclaw would have Barnes lift up her shirt and expose herself and then open her pants and expose herself again knowing that Williams was most likely pissed off, only feet away inside the house, and that the eleven year old and the seven year old and anyone on the street could be witnessing exactly what he was doing.  What I’m guessing he probably actually did do, is what many other officers do on the Northeast side on a daily basis.  He suspects that Tabitha Barnes is doing and selling drugs.  He has her perform the Clasp and Shake maneuver.  A maneuver I discussed in the last episode.  He probably also had Barnes roll down the waistband of her pants to show that she wasn't hiding any drugs or contraband. Holtzclaw admits to doing these things during his original interrogation.

 

45:21

All Barnes has to do is exaggerate those claims and now, all of the sudden, you have her exposing herself while under coercion, and you have an officer that has absolutely no way to defend themselves.  Now, that's just my speculation, but it has no more or less evidence or credibility than the criminal allegations.  As for the twenty dollar bill in the backseat of Holtzclaw's patrol car, that did happen.  And it happens again with another accuser.  In fact, it happened many times with many people Holtzclaw pulled over in the Springlake District.  The twenty dollars is an odd 'trick' or 'test', for lack of a better term, that Holtzclaw learned while he was working in the gang unit.  The idea, it’s simple enough, you place a twenty dollar bill in your backseat and see if a suspect that you put back there ignores the twenty dollar bills, points it out and hands it to you, or steals and conceals it.  It's supposed to be an honesty test. Regardless, patrol car GPS records show Officer Holtzclaw pulled away from the house at 10:06pm, or just thirteen minutes after coming into contact with Barnes or twenty-seven minutes after arriving on scene.  Looking over the discovery evidence, there is one additional action taken by Holtzclaw that bears mentioning on this date.  At 1:00am records show that Holtzclaw ran the name of his then girlfriend though the police database.  He had been in an exclusive dating relationship for a couple of months at this point and he did what many other police officers with access to such a database do… He ran a history check on her.  To be very clear though, this is a blatant policy violation, but one that is routinely made by other police officers.  I only mention it out of complete transparency and because the prosecution makes an issue of the fact Holtzclaw runs some of his accusers through the database at times when they are not in his presence, as if there is something nefarious in his actions.  The reality is, he runs people through the data base both out of curiosity and to aid him in his attempts to curb crime.

 

47:33

The very next day Holtzclaw is back on duty again and patrolling the Springlake District, which includes making passes by Northeast Fifteenth and Jordan where he suspects Barnes is dealing drugs.  At 7:10pm Holtzclaw calls into dispatch that he's “on a crack house".  Radio traffic has him on an attempt to locate at 1504 or 1505 North Jordan Avenue. 

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Off. Daniel Holtzclaw:Forty-Five, dispatch, bill me a call at 1505 North Jordan Ave on an attempt to locate, please.

 [RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host: Detective Gregory testified that he went to those locations are that they are vacant lots.  That is simply not true.  Now, neither 1504 or 1505 North Jordan actually exists as an address--you can verify this by doing either a Google street view search or typing the address into the Oklahoma County Assessor’s website database—but those locations are also not "vacant lots."  There are no homes facing Jordan Avenue in this area.  However, if you map those locations, you'll see they line up with the backyards of homes that do face Northeast Fourteenth Street.  More than likely, that was just Holtzclaw's best guess at his location in case something happened.  I drove to this location.  My guess would be that from that position he was most likely looking straight into Barnes' backyard, which is only a few feet away.  Patrol car GPS almost immediately has Holtzclaw parked in front of Barnes' home.  Officer Holtzclaw exits his patrol car and walks up to Barnes' door and knocks.  Barnes answers and opens the door part way, just enough to have a face to face conversation.  Holtzclaw tells her that he recently received information that she sold a twenty dollar rock of crack cocaine to an individual he has spoken to.  A CI, or confidential informant.

 

49:34

Now, to be honest, I have no idea if Holtzclaw really had someone tell him that they bought crack from Barnes (like Florene Mathis, whom he stopped just the day before) or if he is simply making it up as an excuse to do what is called a knock and talk.  These knock and talks happen routinely and are perfectly legal and within police policy.  You'd actually be surprised how many criminals with something to hide agree to allow a police officer to walk in and search their home, their motel room, their car or personal belongings, when all they have to say is ‘no, thank you, not without a warrant.’  In this case, Barnes calls her mother while talking to Officer Holtzclaw and phone records verify this.  At 7:11pm Barnes calls her mother in Texas and keeps her on the phone until 7:29pm. Barnes testified she called her mom because she was scared.  What doesn't make sense though, is that if Barnes was truly scared then why did she not simply get the attention of her brother or her boyfriend, Terry Williams? Both of whom she claimed were in the house at the time of Holtzclaw's visit.  I personally believe Barnes' mother when she said that Holtzclaw was probably not being very friendly and that she never actually talked to Holtzclaw on the phone. She simply heard him talking to her daughter.  When Barnes wouldn't allow Holtzclaw to search her home (a request that was perfectly legal and a denial of that request which was also perfectly legal), Holtzclaw didn't try and use Barnes' warrants to gain entry, didn't arrest her for her warrants, and didn't say or do anything inappropriate. He did exactly what he was legally obligated to do.  He turned around and walked away.  At 7:15pm, Holtzclaw puts himself out at "vehicle in driveway" and notes the tag number of the green Saturn that belongs to Barnes.  GPS records show he pulled away from Barnes' residence at about that same time.

 

51:46

You'll recall Barnes claims she was so upset that she called her sister and that her sister came the next day, they boarded up her home and she went into hiding for three months.  I think it's pretty obvious by now that that is a lie.  Her own boyfriend and mother contradict that assertion and Barnes herself told Detective Gregory she only left for a month and she did so to take care of her mother.  Then there's the reality that Barnes' sex offender boyfriend, Terry Williams, was stopped parked near Barnes' house on April 8th, some thirteen days later.  Barnes may very well have gone to her mother's home for a few weeks, most likely to take care of her as she was not in great health.  But, there's also a very real possibility Barnes was feeling the heat from Holtzclaw's recent attention to her, her alleged criminal activities, and her registered sex offender boyfriend.  She's been to prison before, and she didn't want to go back.  So, she very well may have left town for fear police were watching her home 24/7 and a raid or search warrant was imminent.  Boarding up some windows would most likely simply have been to keep other people from breaking into her house while she was gone. Or, as her boyfriend testified, maybe she just had a window or two that somebody had already knocked out.  Regardless, Barnes' claims are not backed up with a single piece of evidence that a single crime was committed.  Even though in each instance, the opportunities for at least witnesses was abundant.  As I've clearly shown in these last three episodes, much of what Barnes originally stated she later changed, embellished, or claimed she can't remember, and her own family members and friends wouldn't corroborate any of the crucial details.  In fact, they most often contradicted her.  Yet, once again, detectives ignored all of that.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Kim Davis:We’ll take our time and we’ll verify everything the girls say, or we’ll verify everything he said.  And the—and, and that’s the way the chips are gonna fall. And everything the girls said verified, and nothing he said did. [laugh]

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

54:01

Host:On this episode’s homepage I've included copies of all of the relevant police reports, photos, audio files, maps and more.  I've even outlined and summarized the allegations and any supporting evidence either for or against Barnes' claims.  When I get to the trial portion of this season, I'll be providing additional behind the scenes details of Barnes testifying while high on PCP and what exactly occurred to make her hours late for her court appearance.  That's it for this episode.  In the next episode, I will dive into the allegations of fifty-one year old Carla Johnson.  That name should sound familiar.  You'll recall I mentioned that Officer Daniel Holtzclaw encountered her on March 25th, and just a block from Barnes' alleged crack house.  Johnson too is a crack addict and like Barnes, she claims she was inappropriately touched.  And conveniently enough, as she was once again in the area of Barnes' alleged crack house. Like Florene Mathis, is Carla Johnson also an acquaintance of Tabitha Barnes?  You'll have to wait until next episode to find out.  This serialized podcast of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw follows the timeline and perspective of the investigation, but with the scrutiny of the defense.  If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to subscribe and give us a five star review.  If you would like to know more and see many of the files used to compile this episode, please visit this season’s homepage at holtzclawtrial.com. You can also follow updates on our Facebook page at In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw, or on Twitter @HoltzclawTrial. Bates Investigates - Season One: In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw case is researched, produced, and edited by me, Brian Bates.  This has been a bug stomper production.  

 

- END -

EPISODE 14

Episode 14: Carla Johnson Allegations

This transcript was computer generated and has not been proofed for accuracy. For reference purposes only.

[OPENING MUSIC]

 

Disclaimer: This podcast deals with adult subject matter, including depictions of drug addiction, prostitution, sexual assault, and rape.  Parental guidance is suggested.

 

00:13 [OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE]

[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE ENDS]

 

Timestamp: The following episode contains investigative events which occurred on August 14, 2014.

 

01:00

Host: Welcome back to Bates, investigates season one in defense of Daniel Holtzclaw. This is episode 14 and in this episode I will be discussing the Carla Johnson allegations. As I mentioned in every episode, this podcast follows the timeline of the investigation into former Oklahoma city police officer Daniel Holtzclaw. With that in mind, we are at a point where the investigation is two months in and it's really ramping up and criminal charges. Well, they're imminent. Because of that, we start to have some overlap and important events that occur on the same day or around the same time and I have to discuss those events separately so as not to get too confusing. In episode 11 through 13 I discussed the Tabitha Barnes allegations that were made when investigators interviewed her on August 14th and August 17th so to keep with the investigative timeline, we need to back up again to August 14th of 2014 on this date, Oklahoma city sex crimes detective Kim Davis and fellow detective Valerie Homan set out to locate an interview 51 year old Northeast Oklahoma city resident Carla Johnson.

According to their own official police report, which I have published on this episode's homepage at Holtzclaw, trial.com Johnson's name got on the detective's radar the same way most all of the accusers were identified. QUOTE Lieutenant Muzny gave me a list of several females that he wanted contacted because they could possibly be victims of officer Holtzclaw. When he gave me this list, we had still not found a match to the unidentified female DNA found on officer Holtzclaw's pants. Carla Johnson was on the list on eight 1414 detective Homan and I went to the last listed address in Varuna for Carla. She answered the door. I told Carla I received a tip that she may have been sexually assaulted by an Oklahoma city police officer. Carla shook her head and said, yes ma'am, that did happen. We asked if we could come in and talk to her and she let us in END QUOTE.

There's a couple of things that I think I really need to point out here before we get into Johnson's allegations for one and once again, detectives are not responding to a complaint by Johnson. Instead, detectives are actively seeking out victims and they only know to seek her out because their boss, Lieutenant Timothy Muzny compiled. A QUOTE, list of likely victims. Though I personally believe it's a list of most likely accusers. Regardless, this list is limited to black females with a history of prostitution and or drugs that officer Daniel Holtzclaw had contacted while on patrol and as I will get to when I cover the jury trial detectives nor the prosecution could produce this list for the defense and even denied its very existence. Also, Carla Johnson remembered detective Davis, his introductory quote a bit differently at trial where she said quote, she told me that they had been informed that I had been sexually assaulted by one of their police officers in to quote.

[04:37]

Secondly, even though detective Davis pulled Johnson's address and took detective home and with her to drive to Johnson's residence for the express purpose of interviewing her, detective Davis for whatever reason, intentionally did not record the resulting interview. Even though up to this point in the investigation they have recorded accusers, Morris, Ellis, Mathis, and barns. In some instances they've recorded interviews with those people on multiple occasions and additionally in some of those instances, the interviews were even video recorded. Detective Davis was asked at trial how it is that she neglected to record her interview with Johnson, her reply that even though she took another detective with her, she didn't even bother to take a recorder because she didn't think Johnson would answer the door and that they would just leave a business card behind. Seriously, folks, this is how a seasoned Oklahoma city police detective answered under oath a criminal trial as to how she conducts a very serious investigation into one of their own officers.

Also, as I've pointed out in other interviews and as will be evident in future interviews, both the detectives, Kim Davis and Rocky Gregory have a questionable habit of describing their interviewees demeanor in a way that does not match the resulting audio and or video. With that in mind, I'm suspect that Johnson replied in the manner in which detective Davis portrays her and her report. Regardless, the detectives first get Johnson's background information. She's an unemployed black female and has lived at her current address in the 1800 block of Northeast 25th street for the past three years. She's lived there with her platonic roommate. Uh, mr Victor Wilson Johnson self reported that she has no victim or mental health history is not on any medications but does have a history of multiple arrests, prison time and admits to smoking crack cocaine. Johnson said she recalled being stopped by the officer who sexually assaulted her twice though she doesn't recall the officer's name.

I'm going to refer to that officer as Daniel Holtzclaw going forward in this episode because she does ultimately identify Holtzclaw in court as her attacker. Johnson said the first encounter was about four and a half months ago. That would have been the March 25th stop that I briefly mentioned in episode 13 the same date that Holtzclaw also stopped accused her flooring Mathis and allegedly sexually assaulted accuser barns at around 10:00 PM with their sex offender boyfriend and her children just inside her home. Johnson recalled her stop happened around 12:30 AM though we know it actually occurred around 9:00 PM Johnson did accurately remember the location near Northeast 14th and KLM. You'll recall that's just the block from the crack house. Officer Holtzclaw thought Tabitha Barnes was operating at 15th and Jordan Johnson testified at trial that she had just left the home of a 90 year old man that though he's not a relative and she never identified him by name, she had legitly has been taking care of him for four or five years and simply refers to him as Papa Johnson stated, she was walking from his house at Northeast 14th and Kellum and headed to another friend's house at Northeast 15th in Kellam.

[08:24]

Johnson told detective Davis and later testified that Holtzclaw first drove up from behind past her, then made a U-turn and came back and then stopped her. She describes most of the encounter as pretty typical for that area. Officer Holtzclaw asked if she had any contraband on her in response, she took off her jacket and emptied her pockets, which contained some cash, a lighter and a cell phone. Johnson was also asked if she had any drugs on her, what she's been arrested for in the past. When was the last time she was arrested and has she ever been arrested for prostitution? She says, the officer even asked if she had just bought crack from the drug house on Northeast 15th that's possibly a reference to accuse her. Tabitha Barnes is home. Johnson stated that Holtzclaw next asked if she was wearing a bra. She replied no, and quote shook her shirt.

She also claims that Holtzclaw had her remove her shoes and socks, a claim you won't hear from any other accuser. She was then instructed to take a seat in the rear driver's side of his patrol car while he searched her purse, which was sitting on the trunk of his car. Afterwards Holdsclaw got in the driver's seat and asked where she was coming from and where she was going to. Johnson replied that she was on her way to a friend's house and that she had also been quote, taking care of her Papa. According to detective Davis's report, Holdsclaw asked Johnson seven or eight times if she was sure she didn't have anything down her pants. Johnson said no and even reportedly told Holtzclaw he could call for a female officer to come and check her. Holtzclaw then ran a check on her for warrant. When she came back clear, he let her out of the patrol car as she was getting out.

Johnson said she saw a $20 bill and claimed she thought it fell out of her back pocket, so she took it. Holtzclaw then told her he wanted to check his back seat to make sure she hadn't discarded any drugs there. After a moment he exclaimed that she needed to give him back the $20 bill Johnson said after she made sure it wasn't hers, she returned it. She recalled Holtzclaw commenting that he had the money back there for a reason, but didn't give any more details. Johnson then walked away allegedly to a friend's house. While Johnson doesn't claim anything inappropriate happened on this first stop she does on the second stop, which she said was about a month and a half later around two in the morning. Records would later confirm that Holtzclaw did indeed stop Johnson on May 26th, 2014 but it was around 12:00 AM Johnson said she was once again walking this time from a cousin's duplex near Northeast 16th terrace and Jordan Avenue when Holtzclaw rounded the corner around Northeast 16th and Jordan Avenue and according to Johnson almost hit her.

He stopped and he began as he did before by asking what she was up to and where she was coming from and where she was headed to. Johnson said she told officer Holtzclaw that she was on her way home from her cousin's house. Holdsclaw then turned his attention to whether or not she had drugs or a weapon. Honor Johnson said, sure. Applied no and emptied her pockets when she pulled out condoms. Holtzclaw asked if she was out prostituting. She again replied no. He next had Johnson get in the back of his patrol car while he set up front and ran her for warrants. Johnson said he made mention of recalling stopping her several weeks ago, but that he thought he had taken her to jail when she came back clear for warrant. Holtzclaw once again let her out of his patrol car and asked her if she had any drugs specifically if she had drugs hidden in her pants.

[12:30]

Again, she claimed she was adamant she did not. Johnson claims that Holtzclaw then told her quote, let me check to which she turned around thinking he was just going to Pat searcher, but that's not what she claims happened. When Johnson first spoke to detective Davis, she was clear. Officer Holtzclaw reached around and grabbed both of her breasts and fondled them on top of her shirt. Johnson stated she was not wearing a bra. However, at preliminary hearing she updated her version so that it was much more favorable to the prosecution and now she is wearing a bra and officer Holtzclaw touched her under her shirt and under her bra skin to skin. After the discrepancy was pointed out by defense attorney Scott Adams. Johnson changed it back to on top of her shirt while wearing a bra at jury trial. While no longer skin to skin, she's now allegedly not wearing a bra.

Johnson said that Holtzclaw next put his hands down the front of her pants under her underwear and touched her vagina and specifically her clitoris. According to detective Davis's report, Johnson replied, quote, sir, please. You are not supposed to do that. In quote to which officer Holtz clause only alleged reply was quote, okay, you can go. Johnson claims that as she walked away, she used her cell phone to call her roommate Victor Wilson. Johnson stated her cell phone is broken and that while whomever she calls can hear her, she cannot hear them. Johnson said she didn't know with Victor answered his phone and that she kept saying, quote, I'm walking. I'm scared. This officer is really strange. He put his hands down my pants and quote Johnson said as she was walking home, she rounded the corner on the Kellum and officer Holtzclaw was coming up behind her again.

She said he pulled up beside her and exclaimed quote. As a matter of fact, you have a warrant. You need to take care of that. In quote at trial. The prosecution forwarded the theory that officer Holtzclaw made the existence of a warrant statement to scare Johnson and do use it over her in future sexual assaults at preliminary hearing. Johnson testified that officer Holtzclaw's comments didn't concern her or make her nervous because she knew she didn't have a warrant when Johnson got home. She learned that her roommate had indeed never answered the phone when she called, so she explained what had just happened at preliminary hearing. Johnson testified that she not only discussed what happened but that she and Mr. Wilson actually listened to the voicemail she had left. She testified that you could only hear bits and pieces of it and that after they listened to it, Wilson deleted it.

However, at trial, Johnson testified under oath that she didn't really talk to Wilson about the event and didn't even know if she had indeed left a voicemail and certainly didn't listen to it and certainly knows nothing about deleting the voicemail that very night she told detective Davis she didn't report the incident because she didn't think anyone would believe her. However, she did offer to take a polygraph and stated she could pick the officer out of a photo lineup. Detective Davis indicates in her report that she returned the next day and obtained for buccal swabs or DNA samples from Johnson at her home. What she doesn't indicate in her official investigative report is that she had another detailed unrecorded discussion with Ms. Johnson and we have reason to believe that they had this undocumented discussion because Johnson herself testified to it at the preliminary hearing for some unknown reason. Detective Davis weights over a month and only after officer Holtzclaw has been arrested to contact Carla Johnson's roommate, Victor Wilson to see if he can even corroborate any of Johnson's allegations.

[16:50]

According to detective Davis's official report, she made contact with Mr. Wilson on the phone on September 18th of 2014 Wilson is a 58 year old black male and it MITs that he and Johnson once were in a dating relationship but over time they ended the relationship but continued to live with each other as roommates. Wilson recalled the May 26th early morning call from Johnson. He told detective Davis that because of the late hour he did not answer the phone. However, he stated that the next day he noticed he had a voicemail and it was from Johnson. Wilson said when he listened to the voicemail, he heard Johnson state quote. She was pulled over by a police officer while she was walking and he felt all over her and quote. Detective Davis noted that Wilson claims he didn't talk to Johnson much about it, but that she just mentioned that an officer stopped her and ran his hand down her pants.

Detective Davis noted that Wilson had quote since deleted the voicemail. There's not a lot to this case and by that I mean it's a pretty straight forward. He said, she said without much direct evidence on either side except for the testimony of the accuser, and I think this is key. Whenever you have a, he said, she said, credibility and consistency are virtually all you have to go on. I'd simply argue this. Accuser has neither of those on her side. You've probably noticed by now in this serialized podcast that I don't harp on an accuser's race addictions or even they're often extensive criminal records, but it's no secret that in criminal proceedings where there is a total and complete lack of evidence, credibility is all you have left and the burden of proof is 100% on the prosecution. Now Johnson does have a felony record. In fact, she testified at trial to having at least seven separate felony convictions, but I've looked at her record and other than the one escape from a penitentiary charge, the rest appear to be all related to the possession of drugs.

I don't see that in and of itself as having a huge impact on her credibility, but her extensive drug possession record that Holtzclaw would have been aware of I do think does have an impact on why Holtzclaw may not have believed her when he encountered her and may have felt that there was a good chance she did in fact have drugs on her and therefore knowledge of drug activities in the area. I do think though that our credibility as far as the charges go should be suspect or at least is fair game for scrutiny. For the simple reason, her facts like so many of the other accusers seem to change and almost always in the prosecution's favor. So here's what I think the evidence actually supports. As we know from the most recent episodes, Oklahoma city police officer Daniel Holtzclaw not only patrols the spring Lake district and extremely high crime area, but he also suspects and even knows that the occupants have more than one house in the area of Northeast 15th and Jordan Avenue is dealing crack, cocaine, heroin, PCP, and possibly other drugs.

On March 25th of 2014 Holtzclaw starts his shift two hours early. Records show he logged on at 11:51 AM instead of his normal 2:00 PM detective Davis testified he was most likely working in overtime shift at around 4:50 PM Holtzclaw encounters, accuser flooring Mathis at Northeast 15th and Jordan, you'll recall she said nothing inappropriate happened on that date. At about 9:00 PM Holtzclaw encounters Carla Johnson walking down the street. According to police records at 8:58 PM he initiates contact with Johnson. He quickly learns that not only is she in the area of several drug houses at night, but she herself has a long list of drug related felony convictions. She is on foot and gives a home address that is about a mile away. This most likely necessitated the repeated inquiries as to whether or not she was in the area buying drugs and whether or not she had drugs hidden on her Holtzclaw. Seeing that Johnson didn't have a bra on most likely assumed if she was concealing drugs or drug paraphernalia. It was hidden and neither her pockets purse shoes or her pants as Johnson stated holds. Claude did indeed search her purse, had her remove her shoes and socks and empty their pockets. Johnson claims there was no attempt at this stop to search her pants. Holdsclaw then places her in the back of his patrol car and runs her for warrants.

[21:58]

OCPD Dispatch: Tuesday, March 20 CLF and Ms. Johnson. That's John ocean, Henry Nora, Sam ocean, Nora, Carla, Charles, Adam. Robert Lincoln. Adam [inaudible] 62 black female. If you also look by social as well cause she has other aliases. Four four six well a female 2111

Host: After coming back clear for warrant. Holtzclaw lets Johnson out of his patrol car. She does mention the presence of a $20 bill and how she picked it up as she was getting out because she quote assumed that had fallen out of her back pocket. You'll probably recall from episode 13 Holtzclaw also had a $20 bill in his backseat just an hour later when he encountered barns, just a block or so away and as I described an episode 13 I think the $20 was some sort of odd honesty test that Holtzclaw had picked up while working on the gang unit. Police records show that the contact wood Johnson ended at 9:22 PM Johnson claims she walked off at that point and that nothing inappropriate occurred. Fast forward two months and Johnson is once again a mile from home on foot at night in a high crime area known for drugs and prostitution. When she encounters officer Holtzclaw this time only feed away from the corner of Northeast 15th and Jordan. According to police records, officer Holtzclaw puts himself out at the stop at about 12:10 AM on the morning of May 26th, 2014

Daniel Holtzclaw: 16 Victoria Holtzclaw

Host: recognizes Johnson from a previous encounter. Any inquires with her about it, he's really just sizing her up as he is suspicious that she is once again in the area buying and or using crack cocaine this time. Johnson says she was walking from her cousin's home and headed back to her house. Now keep in mind we've already had several examples were accusers in this area. Identify individuals as quote, cousins, uncles, aunts and pawpaws when in fact they are not related to them at all and often those people have criminal records. Once again, Johnson is placed in the back of Holtzclaw's patrol car and checked for warrants and once again she comes back clear

[24:35]

OCPD Dispatch: Monday, may 26 1417 and 18 seconds. Well in the room please. Last name is Johnson comes spelling. First name is Carlos, Charles, Adam Lee, Charles, Adam, Robert. We can add them to books saying, first name is Carla. This Charles out of Robertson, Adam, Monday 14

Host: At some point during the stop, I don't doubt that Holtzclaw inquired as to whether or not Johnson had drugs concealed on her person seeing she doesn't have a bra on Johnson at MIT. She simply shakes it her shirt to show nothing is hidden underneath. She's not carrying a purse this time and when she emptied her pockets she has cash and some condoms being that it's a high prostitution area. Holtzclaw suspects Johnson is walking this area engaging in street prostitution and then using the proceeds to buy crack cocaine Johnson's admitted drug of choice. I would imagine that Holtzclaw naturally did check Johnson for drugs. He most likely had her shake her shirt and then either rolled down her waistband and or he very well may have Pat searched her waistline in legs with the back of his hands looking for drugs or drug paraphernalia like a crack pipe.

I personally can't imagine a situation where Holtzclaw would place his bare hand down her pants and literally touch her vagina after being suspicious. She is engaging in street prostitution and crack cocaine. And keep in mind this is the first time we've heard this sort of an allegation, the direct touching of the crotch area from any accuser. But this isn't the first time we've heard what Johnson alleges was her only verbal response to officer Holtzclaw touching her. You'll recall she said, quote, please sir, you're not to be doing this. Wait a minute. Where have we heard this exact quote before?

You ain't supposed to do this. Sound familiar? It's verbatim to what accuser Janie Ligons said to detective Davis and in a widely aired news report less than two months prior to detective Davis locating and interviewing, but not recording Carla Johnson just as she didn't record accuser. Jannie Ligons, I don't think it's an accident that two accusers interviewed by the same detective who didn't bother to record either of those interviews now conveniently contain identical quotes in each report, having no warrants and no drugs on her. Holtzclaw releases Johnson from investigative detention and sends her on her way. Patrol car, GPS and police records show that Holdsclaw ended this stop at 12:24 AM or about 14 minutes after it began.

[27:53]

Daniel Holtzclaw: 45

Host: As for Johnson's claim that Holtzclaw pulled back up to her about a block over that's completely possible and his patrol car GPS has him still along the route. Johnson said she was walking. As for what Holtzclaw may have said to her, well that's anyone's guess. If he did indeed have additional information that she did indeed have a warrant, then he may have simply told her or he may have simply told her to be careful or that he was keeping an eye on her because he felt she was lying about her activities in that area. I really have no idea, but I do know the prosecution's theory doesn't make sense that Holtzclaw pulled up and made up some excuse that Johnson had a warrant so that he could somehow use that over her to sexually assault her in the future. If he was going to do that, then why not do it just prior to the actual sexual assault.

If after the assault, then why does he never have contact with her again? Furthermore, even by Johnson's own testimony, officer Holtzclaw doesn't threaten her. He simply tells her she needs to take care of a warrant and drives away if that's a threat and she follows up on his advice and tries to quote take care of it, she's going to be told by the city that she doesn't have a warrant. And lastly, like Johnson said, she was in the patrol car and heard the dispatcher say she was clear of any warrants and that even if Holtzclaw made that claim, she said it didn't even phase her or make her nervous. Regardless, we know from cell phone records that Johnson did indeed place four phone calls in about a three minute span right after the stop to her roommate Victor Wilson's number. Each call was very short and detective Davis, his report only reflects one at trial.

Johnson said she called the first time at 12:31 AM and hung up when she saw officer Holtzclaw coming back down the street towards her. Just a quick interjection. Phone records actually show. She made two calls in quick succession at 1231 then after Holtzclaw stopped briefly and went on, she made two more telephone calls about 12:33 AM both of those in succession but why she doesn't even know if Wilson has answered any of the calls. In fact, she testified she didn't even think he would because of the time of night so was she truly afraid and that's why she kept calling even though it would have served no purpose or does she always call her roommate when she is headed back home after loitering about in a very dangerous high crime drug area and her phone was just acting up, which she testified it was allegedly broken. Something I would have personally liked to have seen is a month or so of Johnson's phone records to see if it's common for her to call Wilson late at night and to see if she actually makes a lot of calls from her phone thus putting into question her claim that her phone was broken and that she couldn't hear on it.

[31:17]

There are red flags in this incident, both in Carla Johnson's favor and an officer Daniel Holtzclaw's favor in Johnson's defense. Holtzclaw's activity log reflected the March 25th traffic stop. The one where she says no sexual assault occurred, but his activity log doesn't reflect the May 26th stop. The one where she says she was assaulted. Prosecutors allege this was intentional on Holtzclaw's part to try and cover up his contact with Johnson. That said, detectives only knew about the May 26th stop because Holtzclaw did call the stop and so there is an actual record of it. He just didn't write it down. In fact, he didn't write down any stops or contacts made with civilians after 10:40 PM though there was plenty of testimony that officer Holtzclaw wasn't much of a paper pusher. He didn't have a history of keeping very detailed activity logs or field interview cards, but he was also never confronted about that fact by supervisors who were seeing on a daily basis activity logs that must have seen a bit light and extremely few field interview cards.

Another red flag in Johnson's favor searching female suspects when the necessity of such a search is debatable. Much was made about male officer searching females at trial. And I'll get into that testimony in detail in a future episode, but I can tell you this and Holtzclaw's favor, there is no policy forbidding it and it almost always comes down to officer discretion. Once again, there are no independent witnesses to these events even though the encounter was in a very public place on the street in the middle of a neighborhood with lots of late night street activity. Another potential red flag in Holtzclaw's favor, not so much in this case, but back in the original case, the Jannie Ligons case, the prosecution and many upholds clause critics point to that stop and say that at about 15 minutes, which I've pointed out was actually several minutes less than that, that that stop was far too long for something to not have happened.

It's been forwarded that a 15 minute stop is too long of a stop that doesn't result in a ticket or arrest. Well, the first stop would Johnson proves this is not true. That stop that night is about 25 minutes, doesn't involve a vehicle, doesn't involve a lack of insurance or driver's license and doesn't result in an arrest or ticket yet. It was almost twice as long as ligans was detained and Johnson testified that absolutely nothing inappropriately was said or done. Additionally, Carla Johnson allegedly offered to take both a polygraph and stated she could pick her attacker out of a photo lineup. Neither of those things were even offered by detective Davis to strengthen her credibility. Why do you think that is? Of course we don't even know for certain Johnson made those statements because detective Davis didn't even bother to record any of her interviews with her.

[34:44]

I personally feel the biggest red flags are the fact we know Johnson lied at least twice in regarding two critical moments. She lied when she tried to bolster her claims and said Holtzclaw reached up under her shirt and bra and touched her bare breasts, skin to skin. When she was caught in that lie, she backpedaled and said she was touched on top of her clothing. The second and in my opinion, even more critical lie is when she and her roommate tried to use the existence of a voicemail to give credibility to her claims of sexual assault, there was clearly testimony that a voicemail had been left on Wilson's phone and the voicemail detailed and corroborated Johnson's allegations. However, during cross examination by defense attorney Scott Adams, it also became clear that Wilson and Johnson had conspired together and that neither could keep their stories straight. It went from a detailed voicemail was left on Wilson's phone, but only discovered by Wilson the following day and was never discussed in detail with Johnson, but was eventually erased too.

They did discuss the voicemail that same night. Then there was testimony. The voicemail that Wilson had described in detail was actually too garbled to tell what was being said and lastly, the voicemail wasn't deleted some time later because he didn't think Johnson was going to report the allegations, but that he deleted the voicemail the same night it was allegedly recorded, but should we really be surprised? Johnson conspired with her roommate Wilson. The bigger question is why did detective Davis allow that to happen and possibly taint her investigation? Davis waited over a month before making contact with Wilson. How was that professional or even possible? Wilson is Johnson's roommate. He reportedly has a job. Why is there zero mention of detective Davis asking to talk to Wilson on her first or even second visit with Johnson at the home they share together. Detective Davis is either completely INAP or she intentionally was giving Johnson and Wilson time to get their stories straight.

Why else would you not interview the roommate of an accuser who claims that roommate possesses key evidence? And with that, I go back to the foundation of all criminal proceedings like this. In the absence of direct forensic evidence and the absence of independent eye witnesses, you must rely on the credibility of those making the allegations and those being accused lying on the stand, or at least one's inability to be consistent with critical facts should cause you to lose your credibility. Unfortunately, we're dealing with an investigation spearheaded by a detective that believes her accusers are credible despite all factual information. To the contrary.

[38:01]

Det. Kim Davis: We'll take our time and we'll verify everything the girls say or we'll verify everything he said and the and, and that's the way the chips are gonna fall and everything the girl said, verified and nothing he said did.

Host: I can tell you this. Johnson's allegations resulted in two very serious criminal charges to find out how seriously the jury took those allegations and the evidence or lack thereof. You'll have to tune in when I discussed the jury trial and verdict in detail. This is where I'm going to end this episode. In the next I will be discussing accuser Carla reigns. She's the accuser most notable for denying repeatedly that Holtzclaw had done anything inappropriate to her. That is until the persistence of detective Rocky Gregory got her to implicate officer Daniel Holtzclaw. This serialized podcast of the state of Oklahoma versus Daniel Holtzclaw follows the timeline and perspective of the investigation, but with the scrutiny of the defense. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to subscribe and give us a five star review. If you'd like to know more and see many of the files used to compile this episode, please visit this season's homepage@holtzclawtrial.com you can also follow updates on this season's Facebook page at in defense of Daniel Holtzclaw, or on Twitter and Instagram under the name at Holtzclaw trial. Bates investigates season one in defense of dangle. Holtzclaw is research produced and edited by me, Brian Bates. This has been a bug stop or production.

- END -

EPISODE 15

Disclaimer: This podcast deals with adult subject matter, including depictions of drug addiction, prostitution, sexual assault, and rape.  Parental guidance is suggested.

00:10 [OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE]

Newscaster: Officer Daniel Holtzclaw, with the Police Department for three years, is accused of raping and sexually assaulting women he pulled over while on the job.

Jannie Liggons: He said, ‘Come on, come on, just a minute, just a minute’.  I say, ‘Sir, I can’t do this’.  I say, ‘you gonna shoot...’

Det. Kim Davis: Tell me your description of him.

Sherri Ellis: He’s black.

Det Kim Davis: He’s b—okay, black male.

Det Kim Davis: What did your daughter tell you?

Amanda Gates: She said, ‘I met this really hot cop’.

Shardayreon Hill: So, this is good evidence?

Det Rocky Gregory: Well, you tell me.

[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE ENDS]

Timestamp: The following episode contains investigative events which occurred August 15, 2014.

00:59

Host: Welcome back to Bates Investigates - Season One: In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw.  This is episode fifteen.  In the last episode, I covered the allegations of fifty-one year old Northeast Oklahoma City resident, Carla Johnson, who was interviewed by Oklahoma City Police Sex Crimes Detective Kim Davis on August 14, 2014.  That interview was allegedly not recorded.  However, records show, that on that same day, Detective Davis also met with fifty-three year old accuser, Florene Mathis, a second time.  While her first interview was video and audio recorded, the second meeting was allegedly not. Also on this date, Detective Gregory met with and interviewed forty-one year old Northeast Oklahoma City resident, Tabitha Barnes.  You’ll recall, that interview, which was allegedly also not recorded, was cut short when Barnes became incoherent and was unable to stay awake.  Detective Gregory made plans with her to return the next morning. On that next day, August 15, 2014, Detective Gregory went to try to interview accuser Barnes for a second time, but she wasn’t home.

02:15

Detective Davis visits with accusers Mathis and Johnson, yet again, at separate locations to get DNA samples from both of them.  Those encounters were not recorded.  Detective Gregory, unable to locate accuser Barnes, drives over and interviews forty-one year old Northeast Oklahoma City resident, Carla Raines.  According to Detective Gregory’s official investigative report, which I have published on this episode’s homepage, at holtzclawtrial.com, “On 8-15-14, I met with Carla at her residence in the thirteen hundred block of Northeast Eighteenth. I had been trying to contact Carla through phone calls and by going by her residence, leaving my card.  Carla contacted me on this date and advised she would speak with me.  I advised Carla I had a possible tip that maybe she was the victim of a sexual assault. I was given her name through Lieutenant Muzny on the list of possible victims.  See supplemental.  She advised she would speak with me in person.”  Now, I want you to pay very close attention to this next quote.  It’s literally the second paragraph of Detective Gregory’s report.  “Carla advised that she was stopped by an officer who made her expose her breasts. He did not touch her inappropriately, but made her expose herself to him.  I asked Carla to explain.”

03:56

Seems simple enough, doesn’t it?  Detective Gregory makes contact with someone whose name appears on this mysterious list.  And what do you know?  They’re a victim.  But it’s actually not that simple.  To hear or read Detective Gregory’s report, it definitely sounds like he simply knocked on the door and the interviewee just came right out and shared how she had been victimized.  I’m going to play for you now the actual recording of that interview.  Before today, this interview has never been played in its entirety for the public other than at the jury trial.  I want you to decide for yourself if Detective Gregory’s report is a fair or bias portrayal of his interview with Carla Raines. In particular, when does she get around to claiming she’s a victim?  How many times does she deny being a victim of any officer?  And does it seem like Detective Gregory is leading or coaxing her to say exactly what he wants.  Have a listen for yourself. 

05:01[RECORDING BEGINS]

[DINGING NOISE AND SHUFFLING SOUNDS]

Det. Rocky Gregory: Knock, knock.

 

Carla Raines: [Come-in?] (mostly inaudible)


Det. Rocky Gregory: Hello?

 

Carla Raines: Just a minute.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Yes ma’am.

 

[Women speaking inaudibly in the background]

 

Carla’s mother: Who is that?

 

Carla Raines: That’s the detective.

 

Carla’s mother: Oh. Okay.  

 

Carla Raines:  Here you go. Get my belt on, get my ID and stuff out.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Oh, you’re fine.  How you doing, Carla?  Hey, I’m Det--

 

Carla Raines:  I’m doing fine.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: I’m Detective Gregory.

 

Carla Raines:  Here, you can have a seat.  [shuffling noises and inaudible mumbling] …fix this.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Oh, you’re all right. [shuffling and mumbling continues] Well, um, I didn’t think I was kind of being clear about what I was asking.  That’s the reason I wanted to meet you face-to-face.

 

Carla Raines:  Yeah, because, I mean—I ain’t, like I say, I had cleaned my life up so I haven’t been out on no streets.  I haven’t had—this is my ID—but I was…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You’re fine.

 

Carla Raines:  …telling you that I had lost my ID, but I got—this is my current address, this address.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Uh huh.

 

Carla Raines:  But my last ID—see I was supposed to call and report and I forgot it, cause that’s what happened to me before, cause I ain’t have no warrants or nothing, and I didn’t want nobody trying to use my name.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Uh huh.

 

Carla Raines:  And uh—end up—and I’m—we done got stopped and they taking me to jail for robbing a bank or something.  [Laughing]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, you’re wanting your ID back? Is that…

 

Carla Raines:  No, no, no. I lost my ID.  I was just letting you know.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Oh, you lost it?

 

Carla Raines:  Yeah, this is a new one and I lost my old one.  

  

06:18

Detective Gregory: That’s okay.  Okay. [long pause] Just in the past year, or we could say two, but I’m gonna focus in on mainly, like, this year, 2014, but let’s go back just a year. Okay?

 

Carla Raines:  Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Have you ever come into any contact where an officer has been inappropriate?

 

Carla Raines:  No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You ever had to expose yourself to ‘em?

 

Carla Raines:  No.

 

Detective Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines:  I haven’t had really had no—I had I think, like, one con—one, one contact since this year, and um, it was just—no two.  Well, actually, I wasn’t driving and I was in the passenger seat, but I, you know?  Like I said I carry my ID and everything.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines:  But, unh uh, cause I don’t know the streets no more.  I don’t do drugs and all that kind of stuff.  See, I don’t—

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: But you—you wasn’t asked to, if you had any drugs on you, anything like that, and had to…

 

Carla Raines:  Expose myself?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Mm hmm.

 

Carla Raines:  Unh uh. I met an officer, uh, was it this year?

 

07:21

Det. Rocky Gregory: Hi.

 

Carla Raines:  Oh, that’s my mother.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: How you doin?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Are you a cop?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Yes, ma’am.  I think I am.  Sometimes, I pretend to be.

 

Carla’s mother: [inaudible]

 

Carla Raines: [Laughing] Uh, no, unh uh.  I haven’t had—how did you get my name anyway, on something like this?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Well, this is the deal.  We’ve got several victims.

 

Carla Raines: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay?  And so, we’re trying to go back on this guy, and um… he’s a pretty bad guy.

 

Carla Raines: Was he, was he, uh uh uh, dressing himself as an officer or [inaudible] prostitutes?

 

Carla’s mother: [in background] Boy, you got some [inaudible] cops in Oklahoma.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Do what?

 

Carla’s mother: Oklahoma.  Boy, you white folks is crazy.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: [Laughing]

 

Carla Raines: Uh.

 

Carla’s mother: You no good.

08:04

Carla Raines: As far as—cause I haven’t really been on the streets and stuff…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: That—that much, so… but, I—I mean, I know what you talking about, I just couldn’t be talking in front of her, but, uh, I know what you talking about as far as, uh, but I haven’t—you know, but was he—what you mean expose himself, as far as ask for a prostitution or uh…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Not even necessarily for prostitutes. But he tries to… he’s having women do different things.

 

Carla Raines: Oh, thinking he--they gonna go to jail, if they do a favor for him, they wouldn’t.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: There you go.

 

Carla Raines: Okay, I know what you talking about. Uh… within the past year, I really can’t really recall, uh…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And how I come across your name is—is this… is that… uh, anybody with, like, uh… anybody he’s been running. Okay?  And we kinda came up with a list.

 

Carla Raines: Oh, okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: So, it’s been… The only area…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: The problem is…

 

Carla Raines: I been in is… I been in this area.  See, this is the only one, I even thought that prostitute… see this is the only one I was in, and, I guess, like, about three or four months, cause I had been to detox when they first started open—cause I use to be right down the street, but then from Nineteenth, well, Twentieth, on down to maybe Seventeenth, within this area…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Uh huh.

 

Carla Raines: That was the area that I was, that’s the area—the main area that I was in prostitution in.  And, uh, I mean, you’d have some men stop with theyself already exposed.  And, uh, you know, they, uh, have you play with them, you know, while they stand there, or the—they play with themself, I—there’s a couple men that does that.

09:36

Det. Rocky Gregory: Mm hmm.

 

Carla Raines: That play with theyself.  They already have theyself exposed when they stop you, and um, then they ha—they hand you, like, twenty dollars, through the s—through the window, and um, there’s been a couple of men that does that.  That—that’s by themselves, yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Now, are you talking about cops? Or are you talking about…

 

Carla Raines: I don’t know.  I don’t know if they be cops or not.  Sometimes, you know, I never had a uniform officer.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: There’s only one officer that I know, a few years back, he used to, O—this was before OU was only going to Sixteenth Street and back.  He was a black cop that used to come around here.  You know, um, but, like you say, if, I mean, he done stop—I done got stopped by him but he didn’t question me.  But he just, like, uh, I—I understand a girl that exposed her breast to him before, you know, but as far as him threatening to grab somebody or if they…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: I’ve never seen that before, but…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: Unh uh.

10:30

Det. Rocky Gregory: Well, an—and the short list that we’ve had, a lot of them something’s happened.

 

Carla Raines: Yeah.  Oh yeah!  You got some [inaudible]…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And no one came forward or anything, we had to go to th—them.

 

Carla Raines: Yeah, because…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And so that’s why…

 

Carla Raines: You know why?  Because, you know what, it’s like this… if they do come forward, a lot of times you—you gotta know what they got to deal with.  What you guys don’t see what we have to deal with.  You know what I’m saying?  They want my—say, like, they say they wanna search you.  Or they search the car or something like that. And um, that can cause you a lot of problems out here.  Especially women that be out here.  Even, just like, we walking down the street sometime, I even got stopped coming—I used to live right over here on Fourteenth and McKillan—uh, Kelham.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: I was walking and this officer in a black car stopped me.  And he was—I said ‘Why are you stopping me?’  He was—he asked me—I said ‘I live right here on fourteenth.  I’m’—I was just a block, two blocks from my house. And he was just, like, ‘Well, we just wanna talk to you.’  I said, ‘Well, what you wanna talk to me for?’  And so, he searched me, he searched me, and everything like that. You know, how they raise up your bra and all that stuff, he searched me.  And I’m, like, uh, ‘I’m right around the corner from my house.  What do you want from me?’  And, he was, like, uh, ‘Well, we—I just wanted to talk.’  But he had me in the car for, like thirty—forty five minutes.  Right there on Sixteenth.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: How long ago?

 

Carla Raines: This was last year.  It was summer time, cause I remember it was—it had just turned night  and I l left my house on Fourteenth and—we stayed in four—in between Kelham and, uh, uh, Missouri.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: But he had you search how?  I mean, how did he search you?

 

Carla Raines: Like, you know how they search your pockets, and you know raise your…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: I know how I…

 

Carla Raines: Yeah, no, but, but you know how they raise your bra—have you raise your shirt up and raise your bra up and shake it out. And…

12:04

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  But nothing above?  Did he have you lift your bra?

 

Carla Raines: Yeah.  You have to raise your shirt up, lift your bra—yeah, you have to lift your shirt up, lift your bra, shake ‘em out, and make sure ain’t nothing—like, he say, make sure you ain’t got nothing in beneath, you know, your breasts.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did this…

 

Carla Raines: And I know a man cop ain’t supposed to do that. I know a man cop is not—you can empty your pockets, but he is not supposed to touch you, they supposed to call a female officer, that I do know.  But there wasn’t no female officer called.  It was at night time.  I was by myself.  And he stopped me, and searched me and everything, and um…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: How…

 

Carla Raines: Had me to raise my shirt up, do my bra…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did you have your breasts exposed?

 

Carla Raines: Yeah.  You have to.  You have to. You have raise your shirt up, take the inside of your bra and you raise it up, and so—he said make sure there ain’t nothing…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  There’s—there’s…

 

Carla Raines: You understand what I’m saying?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Yeah. But…

 

Carla Raines: I know what you talking about.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: That’s the clasp and shake.

 

Carla Raines: It’s not—no.  It’s the raise your shirt up and raise your bra up.  [Laugh]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did he say to do that?

 

Carla Raines: Yeah, he said, like, he needed to check to see if I had anything on… and I’m, like, ‘Where is the off—the female officer? Well, I got my ID, why are you searching me?’  He’s, like, ‘Well, we just want to talk to you to make sure you safe.’  How am I not safe?  I’m two blocks from my house.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: He said ‘we’?  Was there two of them?

 

Carla Raines: Nope.  There was only one.  Mm hmm, he just said ‘we’.  That we…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: What’d he look like?

13:32

Carla Raines: He was—he was a nice looking man.  He was kinda, kinda—I guess say probably about five nine—six feet, something like that, tall.  Uh, he wasn’t, like, I can’t really say if he was Caucasian or Mexican, cause he was brown skinned and had dark hair.  And um, and like I say, he just had me to raise my bra.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Was he fat?  Was he…

 

Carla Raines: Unh uh.  He was nice built.  Unh uh. He wasn’t fat.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Built like how?

 

Carla Raines: Like, like he worked out.  You could tell that he took care of his body.  Uh, and uh, he just had me to raise my shirt up, raise my bra up, shake, like, my breasts.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And he asked you to raise your bra?

 

Carla Raines:Yeah, he raise—you have to raise your shirt—like he said, raise—cause I know if a female does it, she don’t raise your shirt all the way.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Cause you know, you know how it is.

 

Carla Raines: Yeah.  Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: But he had..

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: To the belly.

 

Carla Raines: No. Unh uh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Maybe a clasp, maybe a shake.

 

Carla Raines: I know what you talking about, that’s not what I did.  I raised my shirt up…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: But why did you—and, I—I’m trying to ask this in the right way.

 

Carla Raines: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Why did you do that?

 

Carla Raines: Because he asked me to.  He said to see if I had anything on me.  And I’m like, ‘My au—my house is right here. I’m…’  He said, ‘Well, where you going?’  I said, ‘Is it against the law for me to walk the neighbor—I know people over here.’

14:31

Det. Rocky Gregory: Anything with your pants or anything?

 

Carla Raines: No, he—he had me to do my pants like this, like, you know, he touched my pockets and stuff to make sure I didn’t have noth—which I had tight pants on so you could tell I didn’t have nothing in my pockets, so I had to raise my shirt up, raise my bra up, and shake it out. And he, he talked me about forty five minutes and, um, then he let me go.  He said, ‘We just, uh—we just wanna make sure you’re okay.’  And I—I was like ‘What am I—what—what’s wrong—what?’

 

Carla’s mother: Excuse me, uh, twin...  Hand me that big Bible off…

 

Carla Raines: This?

 

Carla’s mother: Yeah.

 

Carla Raines: So, uh, that’s what he just had me do. He just talked me to, like, different stuff.  He didn’t ask me about no drugs.  He didn’t ask me about no, no, uh, like, no houses where they get drugs at.  He didn’t ask me none of that.  He just said that, uh…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: I’m gonna go ba—I’m gonna take some notes this time.

 

Carla Raines: Okay.  Okay.  He just asked me…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: How long ago you think that was?

 

Carla Raines: This was last year.  It wasn’t cold outside.  It was—it was kind…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: It was last year.

 

Carla Raines: No, it wasn’t chilly.  When we stayed over there off of Fourteenth it wasn’t, uh, it wasn’t that cold outside cause I remember I didn’t have no jacket.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Let me s—Make sure I got…

15:45

Carla Raines: Yeah.  [long pause] But it was right off here off of, you know where, uh, Sixteenth and Fonshell is?  I was on Sixteenth, but I was—it was by Fonshell.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  So it was…

 

Carla Raines: And he was in a black police car.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So it was Northeast Sixteenth?

 

Carla Raines: Mm hmm.  On Sixteenth Street by Fonshell.  He was in a black car.  And—a black police car.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: All black?

 

Carla Raines: Mm hmm.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Is it the one with the ‘police’ on the side?

 

Carla Raines: With—with the ‘sheriff’ or whatever there the blue writing is on the side.  And he stopped me.  And…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: About what time you think it was?

 

Carla Raines: It was, like, about nine—ten—it was dark. Bout ten, something like that. And uh…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You’re just walking alone.

 

Carla Raines: Mm hmm.  I was by myself.  He’s talking about he just wanna make sure…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: But you was on Sixteenth or you were on Fonshell?

 

Carla Raines: I was on Sixteenth by Fonshell.  I was just—I had just passed, like, a couple of feet past Fonshell.  I was on the north side of the street.  I remember that.

 

Detective Gregory: Okay.  So, he…

 

Carla Raines: And…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: T—talk me through it.  I know you kind of ran down through it, but I wanna…

 

Carla Raines: Yeah, okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: So, he stopped, first he went by, then he came back around and he stopped me.  And, he was—I said, ‘Uh, is there a problem, officer?’  He said, ‘No.’ He said, uh, we—I said, ‘Well, what you stop me for?’  He was, like, uh, ‘Where you going?’  I sa—he said ‘Where you coming from?’  I said, ‘home.’  He said, ‘Where you live at?’  I said, ‘On Fourteenth Street’.  And he was, like, um, ‘Well, where you going to?’  I said, ‘I’m just going to visit, just going to hang out.’  I said, ‘Is there a problem with that?’  He’s like, no.  So, he asked me did I have anything on me.  I said no, and which I had on some pants kinda like this.

16:51

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, so you had on, like, like, shorts?

 

Carla Raines: Some tight.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Like, jean shorts?

 

Carla Raines: Yeah.  And he had, and he had me to—he touched my pockets, like, my behi—my behind and my, uh, front pockets.  And then I had to raise my shirt up.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: He touched it or you touched it?

 

Carla Raines: No, he did.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:: Is this before—did you ever sit in the backseat of the car?

 

Carla Raines: Yeah, I was sitting—before I got in the backseat of the car.  He had me in the backseat.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, this is before.

 

Carla Raines: Yeah, he had me in the backseat after I did all this.  You know…

 

Detective Gregory: Okay, so before—before you sat down?

 

Carla Raines: Mm hmm.

 

Detective Gregory: He does this.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, anything on you?  You say no.  Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And, um, you know, touch my pockets or whatever.  I was, like, see, I said, “My pants is too tight for me—for you to even—for if there was anything on me.’  And so, I had to…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Your front, did he do the back of his hand or just the front?

 

Carla Raines: No.  It was just—it was just, like, [patting noise] Like this.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So it was like a pat search. Okay.

 

Carla Raines: Yeah.  Mm hmm.  And then, um, you know I had to raise my shirt up—I had to raise my shirt up…

18:01

Det. Rocky Gregory: Now, this is the part that I’m—I’m wanting to make sure that I understand.  Okay.  So his next thing is… did he ask if you had anything in your shirt?

 

Carla Raines: Yeah.  He’s just, like, ‘You got anything on…’ he’s like, uh, ‘Anything in—on your top?’ I was, like, ‘Nope’.  So, I had to raise my shirt, or he had to raise my shirt up. And I had to…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Say exactly how he—he said it.

 

Carla Raines: He was just, like, ‘Anything else on, you know, the top part?’  I was, like, ‘No.’  And so, he was just, like, uh, he was just, like, ‘Well, I—You know I have to check you.’ And, you know, I—I thought that was kind of funny, I’m, like, only a female officer is supposed to touch a female.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, so he says, ‘I have to check you’.  So, what do you…

 

Carla Raines: So, I did the raising up.  I had to raise up my shirt.  And I had to take my bra...

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: Raise up my shirt.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Hang on.  Sorry.

 

Carla Raines: I was just gonna put it right here…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Sorry.  That’s [laugh] yeah.  So you raise your shirt?

 

Carla Raines: Right here.  Right here.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: To just above the breasts.

 

Carla Raines: Right above my breasts.  And I had to take my bra.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did he…

 

Carla Raines: And my breasts fell out.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Now what—tell me exactly what he’s saying through this?

 

Carla Raines: No, he was just looking at me.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, he doesn’t—he just says ‘I have to check you’.

 

Carla Raines: Yeah, mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, then you raise your shirt?

 

Carla Raines: I raise my shirt up right here and I raise my bra up.  And I had to shake it out.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Now before you said he said something. I wanna know what he told you to do.

 

Carla Raines: Uh, he just—to make sure I ha—didn’t have anything up here.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Uh huh.

 

Carla Raines: That’s what he said.  So, I raised my shirt—he didn’t touch me—I had to raise my shirt up.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: But he asked you to raise your shirt?

 

Carla Raines: Yeah, he said he needed to make sure I didn’t have anything up here.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: In my bra.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So you raise your shirt.

 

Carla Raines: Raise my shirt up right here.

19:07

Det. Rocky Gregory: What’s the next thing he asked?

 

Carla Raines: Nothing.  So, I had to raise my shirt up right here, cause I know the routine, so I just raised my shirt up right here.  And, uh, which I found kind of funny because he said, you know, he—I had to do it, so I raised my shirt up and I took my bra—my breasts came out.  My breasts came out.  I said, ‘See, I don’t have anything.’  And, you know, I kinda flicked my bra like this, and then I put my breasts back in my bra and rolled my shirt up, and so he, he, um, put me in the backseat.

 

Detective Gregory: Okay, hang on.  Let’s see, I don’t have that… okay, and maybe I misunderstood you before… I thought he asked you to lift your shirt.

 

Carla Raines: He asked me if I had anything up here.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Right.  Okay, he asked…

 

Carla Raines: So, to me, I tak-ed it as, you know, uh, he was, like, ‘Well, do you have any’ cause he—my—he did my pockets like this and he asked me if I had anything up here.  I said, ‘No, I don’t have anything on me.’

20:20

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, he didn’t tell you to pull your bra up, you just did it.

 

Carla Raines: It was more or less, like, a motion to where, uh, uh… I’m trying to hurry up and get away from him, so… cause, you—like I said I’m in the neighborhood.  Somebody see you in the neighborhood, that’s not good, they see the police, you know, stopping you, whatever, cause then everybody saying if you talk to the police you a snitch.  So, therefore, I raised—I said, ‘See, look, I don’t have anything on me.’  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, so he…

 

Carla Raines: He said he had to make sure.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: This is what he told me, he said, ‘I need to make sure.’  So I said okay…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: I need to check you.  Need to make sure.  So, then that’s when you lift your shirt.

 

Carla Raines: Shirt up.  Right here.  And I took my bra, and I did it like this.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: And my breasts came out.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, he didn’t ask you to take your bra—you just…

 

Carla Raines: No, he just said he needed to make sure. 

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: He needed to make sure.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  And then, then you put everything up.

 

Carla Raines: Mm hmm.  And he just—he had a conversation with me.  Like, he ran my name.  He had me in the back of the police car and he ran my name.  Uh, I said, ‘I don’t have no warrants.  I don’t have no tickets or anything like that.’ I said, uh, and he was, like, well, he needed to make sure that...  And I was, like, ‘What was the purpose of this stop?’  And he’s, like, ‘Well, we just,’ he said, ‘We just going around stopping girls and stopping people.’  He said, ‘Girls and people in the neighborhood to make sure that they okay.’ I said, ‘Well, why are you doing that?’ I mean, I didn’t understand that. So, that’s what he said.  To make sure that, um, people are okay.  And so, I just—when I walked, matter a fact, I turnt down this st—no, the s—uh, uh, uh—I was—did I turn down, uh—cause when he did that, I—I backtracked and went down Prospect and I came up Seventeenth Street and when I got to the corner of Seventeenth I saw somebody that I knew and I was talking to him.  And he came back around and told the man that uh, uh, if he didn’t go—cause, cause police lights had blinded him—and he said if he didn’t go—I said, I told him, I said, ‘Go ahead and give me a ride over here and drop me off on Sixteenth.’  So, he said okay, and he said—and the police—and the same cop, he pulled up, and he had his lights on him and he was like, ‘If you don’t go, Ima take you to jail.”  That’s what he told the man.  But the man, reason why he didn’t, he didn’t go right away cause the—po—when he pulled up his lights blinded him through his mirrors.  And, so, that’s when he said that, so the guy, he got upset cause he was like why is he flashing his—you know, but he didn’t say anything.  So, the guy just went and the police just went on, he just went on around him and kept on going.

22:35

Det. Rocky Gregory: So after running you and everything, he just let you go?

 

Carla Raines: Mm hmm.  That’s it.  Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, besides the whole pants check, did he touch you at any other time?

 

Carla Raines: No, just—I just exposed my breasts.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You ever dealt with him before?

 

Carla Raines: Nope, I never even seen him again.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You said he’s about how tall?

 

Carla Raines: He look like he was about six, six feet, something like that.  Um, I can’t say whether he white or mixed cause he—I know he had brown skin and he was nice looking.  He looked like…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You said white and brown?

 

Carla Raines: He was, like, light brown skin, like, like a Mexican.  Kinda like a tan kind of.  Like, his skin was tan.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: And he had black hair.  An, you know, it was neatly done.  And, you can tell that he worked out.  You could tell that.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: What do you think he’d weigh?

 

Carla Raines: I—probably about two ten, something like that, two—I don’t—somewhere in there like that cause he was tall.  And, that was the last time I se…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Any scars, marks, tattoos?

 

Carla Raines: Unh uh.  I didn’t notice none of that cause it was kinda dark and, and he had me in the backseat.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did you catch his name or anything?

 

Carla Raines: Unh uh.  He had me in the back seat.  And he had me there, like, about thirty, forty five minutes.  And he was just running my name [inaudible]…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: He ever tell you to put your shirt back down or anything or you just did it?

 

Carla Raines: No, I just did it on my own.  Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did you take it like you had to lift your, your bra?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Yes, I did.  That’s the only reason why I did it.  Yes.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Why—why did?  

 

Carla Raines: Because he was, like, he needed to check…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Articulate that to me.

 

Carla Raines: He needed to check to make sure I didn’t have anything on me.  And I’m, like, ‘Sir, I don’t have nothing on me.’  And I, you know, I was, like, ‘See’ and I did like that.  And so, he was kinda, like, standing there so I, cause I kinda raised my shirt up and he was just, like, looking at me.  So, I was just, went on ahead, and, ‘See, I don’t have any’—and I exposed my breasts, and I said, ‘See, I don’t have anything on me.’

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, you lifted the sh—shirt…

 

Carla Raines: Lifted my shirt up.

 

Detective Gregory: What’s his very—did he say something in between the shirt and the…

 

Carla Raines: No.  He was just…

 

Detective Gregory: …pulling the bra?

 

Carla Raines: No.  He was just looking.  He just looked.  That’s all.

24:36

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did he have a flashlight on you or anything like that?

 

Carla Raines: Unh uh.  Unh uh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Where was you standing when all of this…

 

Carla Raines: I was standing on the north side of the street. Uh, cause I had just…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: As far as, as far as, where the car was.

 

Carla Raines: Uh, right by—right beside the car.  He was, like, standing… we was towards the back of the car, and um, it was kinda dark on that street.  And, cause, it’s like where the good time house, where they, but that was—it closed, like, you know before the sun start going down, it closed.  So, I was—I had walked past there and I had crossed the street on, on Sixteenth, and I was walking on Sixteenth and I—a few feet past Fonshell.  And then I had crossed the street.  I was on the north side of the street.  That’s when he pulled up.  Cause he went around.  First he was—passed me up and then he came back around when his car was facing west.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: So, because he was saying that he needed to check you and…

 

Carla Raines: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did he ever motion to pull your bra?

 

Carla Raines: Not really.  But he was looking at my shirt, like, looking, looking toward my top area, cause he was looking, like, ‘I just need to make sure there’s nothing on you.’  I mean, he repeated that twice.  So, that’s when I raised my shirt up and said, ‘See, I told you I don’t have nothing on me.’ He repeated it twice.  He said it twice.  So, that’s why I raised my shirt up.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Let me ask you… this all your stops…

 

Carla Raines: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Many cops.  Have you ever pulled your breasts out like that before?

 

Carla Raines:Unh uh.  Not even with a female cop.  Female cop always do—take it and do it like this.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory:Why this time?

 

Carla Raines: I don’t know.  I was by myself.  I don’t know. I was by myself.  And then, it was, like I say, it wasn’t that many, the good time house was closed, there wasn’t that much traffic, and I had just left my house.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And I—I know, this is kinda, I—I’ve gotta… I’ve got, like, a record…

 

Carla Raines: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, but I don’t have, like, every time you’re stopped.  So, I just… just kind of a guesstimate… how many times you think you been stopped…

 

Carla Raines: Once right there.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: …searched like that.

 

Carla Raines: Once right there.  And, like, one time, it was during the daytime.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: I’m saying how many times, not even searched like that…

 

Carla Raines: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: How many times you think you been searched…

 

Carla Raines: Like?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Where you’ve never had to do anything like that before?

 

Carla Raines: That’s the only time I ever had to do anything like that.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: But out of how many stops, you think?

 

Carla Raines: That I’ve had to search like that?  Not…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Not like that.  But, I’m just saying appropriately.

 

26:48

Carla Raines: Appropriately?  I got stopped once from going down the street over there on Twenty Third, and, they, but he--they—he was looking for drugs, cause he admittedly detained me, but there—it wasn’t no drugs or anything in the car.  And then one time it was two females, they stopped me. Which, I was coming from the neighbor—I was leaving from the neighborhood.  I was walking up Everest, cause I just had my jacket at somebody house.  It was kinda cold outside, so I—before it got night time, I had stopped—I knew where I had left my jacket, so I went and got my jacket and left.  I went in there, like, three minutes, they don’t stay there no more.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: That’s okay.

 

Carla Raines: It was on Twentieth Street and Everest. I mean, uh, uh uh, what’s that street, not Everest, uh, the next street from Everest.  But when I—so I came back up Twentieth Street, walking up Everest, but it was—I was by Seventeenth, but they didn’t um… she just kind of, like, did like this, it was female, two females.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: She just did like this.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: How old do you think this guy was?

 

Carla Raines: I’m forty four.  He looked like he was…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: The one over here.

 

Carla Raines: Over here.  He look like he was probably, um, late thirties, uh, you know something like that.  But like I said, he—he looked like he take care of hisself so you really could guess his age and you could be wrong.  That he was uh, younger, but then again, his age, he looked like one of them type where his age, he could have been older, but you could st—guess that he be young, cause he took care—he look like he take care of hisself.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Any other time you can think of?

 

Carla Raines: Unh uh.  That was the only time.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Nothing further?

 

Carla Raines: Unh uh.  That was the only time.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: And I have never seen that cop again. Ever.  Cause usually they have the same cops coming through the neighborhood to be familiarized who’s doing what.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Right.

 

Carla Raines: But I have never seen that police officer again.

28:09

Det. Rocky Gregory: I’m trying to look for some other girls.  Same, same type of deal.  I—I don’t—they’re not in trouble.  You know a Pamela Nash?

 

Carla Raines: I know Pam, but I don’t know where she’s at.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Yeah, I’m having a problem finding her.

 

Carla Raines: Cause I don’t hang out no more like I use to so it’s kinda, like, since they done since they got rid of all that stuff down that way, I don’t hang out no more.  I haven’t seen Pam.  I seen, uh, one time, not within the last few months though, I only seen her once, but I don’t know where she stay at.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  Have you ever heard of any other girls…

 

Carla Raines: Unh uh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Have to do something like this?

 

Carla Raines: But I don’t talk—hardly talk to nobody that I used to know.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You’ve never…

 

Carla Raines: Unh uh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: This you said about a year ago. You said it was h—it was warm out?

 

Carla Raines: It was ki—no, no it was kinda—I had, uh uh, it was, it was night time.  I think I had like a little bitty jacket on.  I had on something.  I know I had on a shirt.  And he was just like, and I took everything out, which I just had my ID cause I always carry my ID in my back pocket if I don’t have my purse.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: And like I said he just had me—I just—you know, he was like ‘Well, I just need to make sure.’  So, that I took it as…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And he said it twice, really.

 

Carla Raines: Yeah, so for me to raise up my shirt and everything.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: For him to…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: But you think it’s in—been in the last year?

 

Carla Raines: Yeah, cause it was, my momma was staying over there, and she just moved over here.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  Do we, y-you think you can narrow down the time period?

 

Carla Raines: It was like, uh, was it around my birthday? No.  it was—it was like, like, September, October something like that. Somewhere in like that.  It was just kind of chilly, but it wasn’t cold out. But me, I have low iron, so…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: It be, it be cold to me.  But that’s the only time.  I have never seen that cop again and I usually see the same ones that circle around the neighborhood that use to come through here, come down through there, you see the same ones, but I have never seen that police officer again. I have never seen him again.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Gotcha.  Okay.

 

Carla Raines: That’s the only time.

30:02

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  I think that covers it.  I-I just didn’t think I was being clear on the, on the phone when we talked…

 

Carla Raines:Y ou was being quite clear.  But like I said, that’s the only time that I had that happen to me when I was on the south side.  And he couldn’t say that I was prostituting, cause I wasn’t.  I was at the gas station.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: On the, on the deal?

 

Carla Raines: Yeah.  And that’s, he exposed hisself to me.  It was a black officer.  He, I guess they was doing some type of sting or whatever.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Sting.  Yeah, VICE sting.

 

Carla Raines: Yeah, and he, he exposed hisself to me [inaudible due to yawn and shuffling] like, they ride around they already be undressed and they’ll stop, like… They—I, you know, I can’t, I have real, something real bad to say when men do like that.  That’s nasty.  Why would you be riding around like that?  You know, and, uh…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: I agree.

 

Carla Raines: And this one guy, like I said, this one white guy he did that and turns out he just said, ‘I just want you to stand here’.  I said okay.  He gave me twenty dollars.  Hey, [laugh] I ain’t gonna turn down no money, but he didn’t touch me, he didn’t get out of his car, I didn’t get into his car.  But that, like I said, that is the only time that happened to me.  I have never seen that police officer again. And I’m I been in this neighborhood for a few years and I would know if I seen him again.  But I have never seen that man again.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: You know.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  Well, uh…

 

Carla Raines: I hope I helped you, but like I said that’s the only time.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You did.  You did.  Umm… you’ll probably see something a little later on, pretty soon.

 

Carla Raines: Okay.  Yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay?

 

Carla Raines: Okay.  Well, I’m on my way downtown, I gotta go see they hiring at the fair.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Hey, what’s a, what’s a phone number for… 

 

Carla Raines: My mother’s number.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Which…

 

Carla Raines: [Redacted]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: [Redacted]

 

Carla Raines: Mm hmm.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: Yeah.

31:39

Det. Rocky Gregory: Thank you so much for meeting with me.

 

Carla Raines: Mm hmm.  Oh yeah.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And, yes, you were a big help.

 

Carla Raines: Okay.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: All right.

 

Carla Raines: That’s a shame they taking advantage of people like that.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Uh, very much.

 

[inaudible]

 

Carla Raines: Yeah, I mean he had—I mean, he was just, like, ‘I need to make sure ain’t nothing on you’ so I just, like I said, I had I felt like that’s what he was telling me, cause I mean…

 

Carla’s mother: [speaking over Carla] Well, they know these [inaudible] they ain’t gonna complain cause then you have to get appointments, you got to go downtown [inaudible]

 

Carla Raines: No, what happen is, if you, you complain about them or write them up and you be on these streets by yourself, that’s where the problem is.  Yes.

 

Carla’s mother: They gonna jack you up.

 

Carla Raines: No, the thing is, they can cause problems for you.  As far as, well, I can let such and su—I know where such and such is that got this house and such and su—I can put the word out on you that you doing this.  Because they can have the neighborhood—the people in the neighborhood that is got them houses, they can have them do something to you by them putting the word out on you.  That’s the kind of stuff that they do.  That I do know.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Who’s—who’s, they…

 

Carla Raines: You know, like…

 

Carla’s mother: Just like, uh…

 

Carla Raines: Say, for instance, like that incident, if you report—if I can report—if I report this man for the kind of stuff that the officers will do, they allow the deal—you know how they, you know it do, it goes in the neighborhood that the dealers or, or, or the ones they can use that’s hanging out on the streets…

32:45[RECORDING STOPS ABRUPTLY]

 

Host: Just for clarification, this is where the recording just suddenly cuts off.  I’m going to break down Carla Raines’ allegations and any evidence that does or does not support them in the next episode.  But beyond that, I think this recorded interview is absolutely critical, and has implications with so many of the other encounters with alleged victims and the resulting criminal allegations.  Carla Raines is so caught off guard by Detective Gregory, I truly don’t think she realizes how honest I personally believe she is being.  And how, in my opinion, she clears up so much of what is actually going on on the streets of Northeast Oklahoma City.  Did you catch that Detective Rocky Gregory interjected the term “Clasp and Shake”?  And that accuser Raines knew exactly what he was talking about and indicates it’s something officers so routinely.  Is Detective Gregory and the prosecution utilizing a well-known and accepted, yet humiliating, police procedure as a noose around Officer Holtzclaw’s neck? You’ll have to wait until next episode to hear my thoughts.  In the meantime, feel free to read the entire report for yourself.  You’ll notice, Oklahoma City Sex Crimes Detective Rocky Gregory doesn’t even once mention that Carla Raines denies being a victim.  This is where I’m going to end this episode. I hope you’ll join me for the next. 

34:19

This serialized podcast of the State of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw follows the timeline and perspective of the investigation, but with the scrutiny of the defense.  If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to subscribe and give us a five star review.  If you would like to know more and see many of the files used to compile this episode, please visit this season’s homepage at holtzclawtrial.com.  You can also follow updates on this season’s Facebook page at In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw, or on Twitter and Instagram @HoltzclawTrial.

 

Bates Investigates - Season One: In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw is researched, produced, and edited by me, Brian Bates.  This has been a bug stomper production. 

 

- END -

EPISODE 16

Episode 16 ׀ Daniel Holtzclaw: Carla Raines Allegations (Part 2)

 

Disclaimer: This podcast deals with adult subject matter, including depictions of drug addiction, prostitution, sexual assault, and rape.  Parental guidance is suggested.

 

00:10 [OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE]

[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE ENDS]

 

Timestamp: The following episode contains investigative events which occurred August 15, 2014.

 

00:58

Host: Welcome back to Bates Investigates - Season One: In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw.  This is episode sixteen.  In the last episode, I covered part one of accuser, Carla Raines’ allegations against then Oklahoma City Police Patrol Officer, Daniel Holtzclaw.  The majority of last episode was the audio from an interview recorded by Oklahoma City Sex Crimes Detective, Rocky Gregory, and forty-one year old Northeast Oklahoma City resident, Carla Raines.  That interview took place on August 15th of 2014, and at Raines’ mother’s house in the thirteen hundred block of Northeast Eighteenth Street.  That interview is only about twenty-seven minutes long, but I would argue it’s one of the most important interviews in this entire investigation – only second to Daniel Holtzclaw’s interrogation interview.  Why?  Because to me, as someone who personally investigated this case, this interview answered so many questions about what was really going on.  Both with Daniel Holtzclaw as a patrol officer prior to these allegations, and with the detectives investigating this case and how their investigative techniques manipulated the facts, the accusers, and allowed Holtzclaw to be falsely prosecuted and eventually convicted.  But, before I get into all of that, I want to first wrap-up what Carla Raines’ allegations actually are.  Raines stated that at some point in the last year, she was walking alone along Northeast Sixteenth Street, just west of North Fonshill Avenue.  She thought the time was around 10 p.m.  She said that as she was walking a newer model Oklahoma City patrol car passed her and then made a U-turn, pulled up to her, and stopped.  The officer, who she stated she had never encountered previously, and was later identified as Daniel Holtzclaw, exited his vehicle and began asking Raines the typical questions: her name, where she was headed, where she was coming from, did she have any drugs on her, etc.  

 

03:12

Holtzclaw then reportedly did a quick pat search upon her before stating, “I have to check you”.  Raines claims that at this point Holtzclaw made a motion for her to pull up her shirt.  She told Detective Gregory that even though Holtzclaw didn’t directly order her to do so, after she lifted her shirt, he allegedly twice told her, “I need to make sure nothing is on you”.  Raines said she knew that meant, she needed to lift up and her bra too, thus exposing her breasts.  She stated that the officer ran her name and that she came back clear for any outstanding warrants.  Raines said that she simply wanted the stop over with as quickly as possible because she didn’t want to be seen talking to a police officer and labeled a snitch.  Before walking away, Raines said that Holtzclaw made another comment that, “I go around and stop girls and people to make sure they are okay.”  Raines was clear, Officer Daniel Holtzclaw never touched her, never said anything blatantly inappropriate to her, and didn’t actually ever specifically instruct her to expose herself.  But that’s not the biggest take away in this interview.  It goes way deeper than that, and I’ll begin to dissect the importance with my thoughts on what happened during her and Holtzclaw’s encounter.  For starters, regardless of Raines’ memory, this wasn’t the first time Holtzclaw had stopped her.  Records show that they had run into each other on at least one previous occasion on July 10, 2013 at about 6:15 p.m.  I don’t have any additional information regarding that stop, other than Holtzclaw ran Raines for warrants.  It was determined by Detective Rocky Gregory that the date of the stop in which Raines claims she exposed herself took place on March 14, 2014, and at around 11:20 at night.  It was about fifty-eight degrees that night and she says she was wearing tight jean shorts, a t-shirt, a bra, and a jacket.

 

05:23

She’s on Northeast Sixteenth Street in a high prostitution and drug area, and it is about a third of a mile from her mother’s home where she was living.  Holtzclaw is in his patrol car.  As he drives past Raines, he is suspicious that she is flagging cars.  That’s code word for a street prostitute who is trying to get a potential customer to stop and pick her up.  According to Officer Holtzclaw’s patrol car GPS, he was out at Northeast Sixteenth and Fonshill for approximately ten minutes – from 11:18 p.m. until 11:28 p.m.  He pulls up, stops, gets out of his patrol car, and goes through the usual routine when encountering someone on the street: name, date of birth, what are you up to?  At 11:20 p.m., Officer Holtzclaw calls into dispatch and advises them to stand by.  

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

[DING]

Computer: Friday, March, Fourteen, Two Thousand Fourteen, twenty-three twenty and forty-nine seconds

 

Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: Charlie Forty-Five, standby.

 

Dispatcher: Standby, Charlie Forty-Five.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host: According to Raines, Holtzclaw has her expose her breasts prior to him actually running her for warrants.  That means it would have had to have happened in the first five minutes or less from when he pulled up and stopped.  In fact, it probably would have had to have happened between the time Officer Holtzclaw told dispatch to standby and when he actually provided her name for the warrant search.  Three minutes later, at 11:23 p.m., Officer Holtzclaw relays Carla Raines' information to check her for warrants.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Dispatcher: Charlie Forty-Five, go ahead.

 

[DING]

Computer: Twenty-three twenty-three and forty seconds

 

Dispatcher: Charlie Forty-Five. 

 

Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: I got one to run.  Uh, last name is Rainez.

 

Carla Raines: Raines.

 

Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: Raines.  Correction.  Raines.  Robert-Adam-Ida-Nora-Edward-Sam.  First name is Carla.  Charles-Adam-Robert-Lincoln-Adam.  Date of birth is [redacted].  Black female. 

 

[DING]

Computer: Friday, March, Fourteen, Two Thousand Fourteen, twenty-three twenty-four and zero seconds

 

Dispatcher: [inaudible] spelling of her last name.

 

Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: Robert-Adam-Ida-Nora-Edward-Sam.

 

Dispatcher: Stand by.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host: At approximately 11:27 p.m., dispatch comes back with the results of the warrant check.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Dispatcher: Charlie Forty-Five, Carla’s clear.

 

Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: Ten four.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

07:46

Host: After Raines comes back clear for warrants, Holtzclaw releases her from investigative detention, and according to his patrol car GPS, he leaves the scene and is moving again, literally sixty seconds after talking to dispatch.  So, what is Raines’ actual allegation during those critical three minutes?  She claims that after his initial questions, he turned all of his attention to whether or not she had any drugs on her.  Raines says that she took it upon herself to raise her shirt and bra to the extent that her breasts became exposed.  She claims she knew or felt that she knew that that is what Holtzclaw wanted her to do.  When no drugs were found and she had no warrants, Holtzclaw released her from investigative detention to go on about her way as he continued his patrol shift.  Now, to put this in perspective, Carla Raines' allegation of exposing herself, without being actually told to expose herself, will eventually result in a criminal charge that carries up to ten years in prison and fines up to twenty thousand dollars.  But these allegations and the subsequent interview with Detective Rocky Gregory is actually much more than the he said/she said that many people think it is.  As I mentioned earlier, this recorded interview answered critical nagging questions that I had when I first started investigating this case.  Like, why are so many of these accusers all alleging they were made to expose themselves?  How is it that Detectives Rocky Gregory and Kim Davis seem to almost magically and effortlessly find accusers that otherwise had not come forward on their own?  And how concerned should the public be that both detectives seem to randomly choose when they will record an interview and when they won't?  And just how complete and unbiased are the resulting investigative reports?

 

09:52

So, let's now analyze Oklahoma Sex Crimes Detective Rocky Gregory's role in accuser Carla Raines' interview.  What is initially so troubling to me is when you compare his written report to the audio recording. The first glaring difference is that Gregory writes his report in a way to make it appear as if the recorded interview at Raines' mother's house is the first time they've actually ever spoken.  When in fact, the audio recording makes it obvious that not only has Detective Gregory previously interviewed Raines, but that during that interview he seemed frustrated that he couldn't get Raines to tell him what he wanted to hear.  Listen to it again.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory: Well, um, I didn’t think I was kind of being clear about what I was asking.  That’s the reason I wanted to meet you face-to-face.

 

Carla Raines:  Yeah, because, I mean—I ain’t, like I say, I had cleaned my life up so I haven’t been out on no streets.  

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host: That's not at all how Detective Gregory's report reads.  I've posted a copy of the official investigative report on this episode's homepage at holtzclawtrial.com.  The following is straight from that report.  "On 8/15/14 I met Carla at her residence at [redacted].  I had been trying to contact Carla through phone calls and by going by her residence leaving my card."  There is no mention that he had asked her questions and that he wasn't getting the answers he wanted, and therefore that’s why he decided to visit with her in person.  The second, and in my opinion even more egregious, discrepancy is the fact that nowhere in Detective Gregory's official report does it ever mention that Raines denied being the victim of Daniel Holtzclaw or any other Oklahoma City police officer.  And it's not like she only denied it once.  She denies being a victim, no less than seven times. Listen again to a string of several denials in the opening minutes of her recorded interview.

 

12:09

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory: Have you ever come into any contact where an officer has been inappropriate?

 

Carla Raines:  No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You ever had to expose yourself to ‘em?

 

Carla Raines:  No.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  Okay.

 

Carla Raines:  But, unh uh, cause I don’t know the streets no more.  I don’t do drugs and all that kind of stuff.  See, I don’t—

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: But you—you wasn’t asked to, if you had any drugs on you, anything like that, and had to…

 

Carla Raines:  Expose myself?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Mm hmm.

 

Carla Raines:  Unh uh.  I met an officer, uh, was it this year?  Uh, no, unh uh.  I haven’t had—how did you get my name anyway, on something like this?

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host: These two examples alone prove that not only should every interview with an accuser or alleged victim be recorded, but that when those interviews are not recorded, we absolutely cannot trust the written accounts of the detectives in charge of this investigation.  In fact, we can't even trust the written reports when the interview is recorded.  Keep in mind, it's these written reports that are reviewed by the higher ups within the police department and prosecutors within the district attorney's office.  They often don't even listen to the recordings - if one is even made available - until right before trial, if ever at all.  Why?  Because there is a certain level of professionalism, trust and fairness that is expected of those conducting these types of investigations.  Investigations that literally leave defendants fighting for their freedom.  These two examples I just gave you prove that Detective Rocky Gregory cannot be trusted with such a high degree of transparency, fairness, and ethics.  And what's more troubling, is that since this trial, Detective Gregory has been promoted to the homicide unit, where the stakes are even higher.  His bias and lack of transparency can literally cost an innocent defendant their life.  You'll recall in accuser Terri Morris' allegations, Detective Gregory made claims in his report that were not to be found anywhere in his recorded interviews with Morris.  The same can be said about specifics contained in Detective Kim Davis' official investigative reports that don't match the recorded interviews.

 

14:34

But, I want to come back to this case and what this recording tells us about what Patrol Officer Daniel Holtzclaw is doing, and not doing, while out on patrol.  Up to this point we are seven accusers in, or just over half of the thirteen that will eventually lead to criminal charges.  Of these seven, the allegations range greatly; from burglary (the alleged unauthorized entry into Tabitha Barnes' home), to groping, or oral and/or vaginal sex.  But the most common allegation amongst all seven accusers is the assertion that Officer Holtzclaw illegally forced them to expose themselves.  Specifically, accusers Jannie Ligons, Terri Morris, Tabitha Barnes, and Carla Raines.  With accusers Sherry Ellis, Florene Mathis, and Carla Johnson all alleging their breasts were touched to some degree.  All under the guise of searching for drugs or illegal contraband.  I do think Officer Holtzclaw was searching these women's breast area for those items, because it's a common hiding place.  But, as I've mentioned previously in other episodes, I think he was doing it as he's been instructed by higher ranking officers and members of the gang unit.  A unit he served on as a very new Oklahoma City police officer.  And, as I've said before, that search technique has a name.  Detective Gregory alluded to the name back in episode two during Officer Holtzclaw's interrogation regarding the Jannie Ligons stop.  He refers to it as the shake.  Have a listen.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory: Run down through on your search of her breasts again.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: [inaudible]

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: For, like, you, you searched her with her, where was her, was she facing you or facing away?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Facing away.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: She was facing away.

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: And how are you seeing if anything’s falling if she’s facing away?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: If it’d fall, I would see right there.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: You’d see right there, but don’t you usually have em turn, face toward you and sh—do the shake out?

 

Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, [laughing] officer safety, I always have everyone face away from me.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did you tell her how to—how far to raise her shirt?  Or to do the, the shake with the bra?

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host: However, in Raines' interview, he actually calls it by its formal name: the Clasp and Shake.  That unfortunate and unimaginable request by an Oklahoma City Police officer to have a female clasp her bra from on top of her shirt, pull it away from her breasts and shake, all with the intent to dislodge anything hidden underneath the breast tissue.  But this term has so far only been coined in this investigation by Detective Rocky Gregory.  Meaning he knows about this procedure.  He knows that even though it doesn't appear in any official police policy manual it's commonly taught to officers and he knows it has a name.  The Clasp and Shake.

 

17:44

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did you have your breasts exposed?

 

Carla Raines: Yeah.  You have to.  You have to.  You have raise your shirt up, take the inside of your bra and you raise it up, and so—he said make sure there ain’t nothing…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  There’s—there’s…

 

Carla Raines: You understand what I’m saying?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Yeah. But…

 

Carla Raines: I know what you talking about.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: That’s the clasp and shake.

 

Carla Raines: It’s not…

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host: I firmly believe that's what Officer Holtzclaw was doing while on patrol when he encountered individuals that he knew or highly suspected were drug addicts and most likely had drugs or drug paraphernalia on them.  In fact, even Carla Raines initially dismisses this as "the routine".

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory: So you raise your shirt.

 

Carla Raines: Raise my shirt up right here.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: What’s the next thing he asked?

 

Carla Raines: Nothing.  So, I had to raise my shirt up right here…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Right.

 

Carla Raines:  Cause I know the routine.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host: It's only after denying being a victim of any officer seven times and then being told by Detective Gregory that he's seeking a really bad guy and that there’s lots of victims, does Raines start to come around.  Here's how Detective Gregory described that revelation with Carla Raines during an interview with conservative commentator, author, and investigative reporter, Michelle Malkin, after Officer Holtzclaw's trial.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory: I just simply asked her, I’m, like, ‘Hey, I’m investigating a—a situation.  Have, you know, you ever been—had any issues with any officers?’  And in the beginning she said, ‘No, no’ but her grandma was there, uh, and then, there at the end, she’s like, ‘Hey, hang on a second.  Can we talk privately?’  Uh, I’m like, ‘Sure.’  So, we step over to the side and she’s like, ‘Well, there--there was, uh, one incident.’  And she goes into that she was stopped and, uh, she had to expose her breasts to, uh, to an officer.  And she tried to describe as best she could.  And then I verified, you know, it was Daniel.  And that’s, that’s kinda how it went.  She did say no in the beginning, but sh—it was because she didn’t want her grandma to hear.  And we, we do that…

 

Michelle Malkin: Did she tell you that?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Um, I spoke with her a couple times.  I know that she kind of a—a—alluded, just, I knew, I just knew that that’s what the reason was when she said she wanted to speak in, in private.  Uh…

 

Michelle Malkin: So, she had, so she had basically denied several times that she was a victim.  You—you’re saying it’s because she didn’t want her grandma to know?

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Yes, I—I…

 

Michelle Malkin: And you’re assuming that or she told you that?  I’m just trying…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Well, I just, just in speaking with her I did gather that because, just because she wanted to speak in private.  Um, at the time, I—I could tell she was really nervous.  Uh, she’s had a past history, you know, getting stopped by the police.  You know, she had that normal history with officers, or, sorry, with—with a, she had that normal past history of, you know, drugs, and, you know, everything else like we’d been seeing.  And, uh, I kinda just kinda gained rapport with her.  Um, and, uh, and I think she felt more comfortable that she—that’s why she took me aside and, uh, we spoke alone and she told me what happened.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

21:09

Host: Did you catch that spin?  And once again he is completely deviating from what is crystal clear in his recorded interview with accuser Carla Raines.  Detective Gregory claims that Raines only initially (and seven times) denied being a victim because her mother (whom he wrongly keeps identifying as her grandmother) was within earshot during that part of their interview and she didn't want to talk about it around her.  Let’s hear what she actually said again so we can put it into context.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory: Well, this is the deal.  We’ve got several victims.

 

Carla Raines: Mm hmm.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay?  And so, we’re trying to go back on this guy, and um… he’s a pretty bad guy.

 

Carla Raines: Was he, was he, uh uh uh, dressing himself as an officer or [inaudible] prostitutes?

 

Carla’s mother: [in background] Boy, you got some [inaudible] cops in Oklahoma.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Do what?

 

Carla’s mother: Oklahoma.  Boy, you white folks is crazy.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: [Laughing]

 

Carla Raines: Uh.

 

Carla’s mother: You no good.

 

Carla Raines: As far as—cause I haven’t really been on the streets and stuff…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: That—that much, so… but, I—I mean, I know what you talking about, I just couldn’t be talking in front of her, but, uh, I know what you talking about as far as, uh, but I haven’t—you know, but was he—what you mean expose himself, as far as ask for a prostitution or uh…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Not even necessarily for prostitutes.  But he tries to… he’s having women do different things.

 

Carla Raines: Oh, thinking he--they gonna go to jail, if they do a favor for him, they wouldn’t.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: There you go.

 

Carla Raines: Okay, I know what you talking about. Uh… within the past year, I really can’t really recall…

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

22:49

Host: It should be very clear, Detective Gregory is lying.  Or at the very least, his bias against Officer Daniel Holtzclaw is so strong he can no longer be objective about any aspect of this investigation.  Raines wasn't afraid to speak in front of her mother.  If that was truly the case, then what's his excuse for why she didn't tell him more details when they talked privately on the phone?  It’s very obvious to me in this recorded interview that Raines is simply trying to figure out what the hell Detective Gregory is talking about.  It's only after Detective Gregory spoon feeds her enough details that she simply regurgitates what she thinks he wants to hear.  And to be quite honest, I think much of what she says is actually true to some extent.  She was stopped by Officer Holtzclaw, she was she run for warrants, and he did what she considers to be routine... he had her do the clasp and shake. 

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Det. Rocky Gregory: So you raise your shirt?

 

Carla Raines: Right here.  Right here.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: To just above the breasts.

 

Carla Raines: Right above my breasts.  And I had to take my bra.  

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Did he…  Now what…

 

Carla Raines: And my breasts fell out.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host: Do I think some of these women lifted their shirts higher than necessary?  Yes.  Do I think some of these women's breasts fell below their shirt line once they were no longer being supported by their bra?  Yes.  Do I think any of that was done with malicious, illegal, or sexually gratifying intent?  One hundred percent, no.  It's obvious when you listen to Raines' interview that even she didn't think it was anything out of the ordinary until Detective Gregory made her feel that it was.  Again, Carla Raines.

 

24:39

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Carla Raines: So I had to raise my shirt up, raise my bra up, and shake it out.  And he, he talked me about forty-five minutes and, um, then he let me go.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host: If you go back through her interview, she must recount doing the clasp and shake at least four or five times.  And she waffles back and forth between being told to expose herself to ultimately admitting she just "knew that's what she needed to do."  She also claims this entire interaction took forty-five minutes.  In reality, we know from patrol car GPS it was only ten minutes or possibly slightly less than that.  One last thing… Did you catch it?  Before Raines realized she needed to focus in on when Daniel Holtzclaw stopped her, she did implicate a different officer for wrongdoing, but Detective Gregory steered her away from that.  And just like accuser Sherry Ellis, Carla Raines implicated a black Oklahoma City police officer.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Carla Raines: There’s only one officer that I know, a few years back, he used to, O—this was before OU was only going to Sixteenth Street and back.  He was a black cop that used to come around here.  You know, um, but, like you say, if, I mean, he done stop—I done got stopped by him but he didn’t question me.  But he just, like, uh, I—I understand a girl that exposed her breast to him before, you know, but as far as him threatening to grab somebody or if they…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: I’ve never seen that before, but…

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.

 

Carla Raines: Unh uh.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.  I think that covers it.  I-I just didn’t think I was being clear on the, on the phone when we talked…

 

Carla Raines: You was being quite clear.  But like I said, that’s the only time that I had that happen to me when I was on the south side.  And he couldn’t say that I was prostituting, cause I wasn’t.  I was at the gas station.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: On the, on the deal?

 

Carla Raines: Yeah.  And that’s, he exposed hisself to me.  It was a black officer.  He, I guess they was doing some type of sting or whatever.

 

Det. Rocky Gregory: Sting.  Yeah, VICE sting.

 

Carla Raines: Yeah.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

26:42

Host: This brings up two interesting points.  One, Raines is now the second accuser to implicate a black Oklahoma City Police officer in wrongdoing in this investigation.  And two, Detective Gregory realizes what Raines is talking about.  She's talking about another disgusting reality of acceptable Oklahoma City Police procedure that is conveniently not discussed publicly.  That officers are allowed, even encouraged, to expose themselves to women and have women get completely naked and expose themselves and even touch officers while they’re working undercover, even though those women at that point haven't done anything illegal.  Yet, Detective Gregory is trying to railroad Officer Holtzclaw when he simply initiates another accepted, though not discussed, police procedure, the clasp and shake.  There will be more examples of Detectives Rocky Gregory and Kim Davis' questionable investigative techniques in future episodes.  But this is where I'm going to stop this episode.  If you'd like to see three hundred and sixty degree photos of where Carla Raines and Officer Daniel Holtzclaw encountered each other, along with maps, police reports, and a transcript of this episode, I encourage you to check out this episode's homepage at holtzclawtrial.com.  This serialized podcast of the State of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw follows the timeline and perspective of the investigation, but with the scrutiny of the defense.

 

28:26

If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to subscribe and give us a five star review. You can also follow updates on this season’s Facebook page at In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw, or on Instagram and Twitter @HoltzclawTrial.  Bates Investigates - Season One: In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw is researched, produced, and edited by me, Brian Bates.  This has been a bug stomper production. 


END

EPISODE 17

Episode 17 ׀Daniel Holtzclaw: The Arrest

 

Disclaimer: This podcast deals with adult subject matter, including depictions of drug addiction, prostitution, sexual assault, and rape.  Parental guidance is suggested.

 

00:10 [OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE]

[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE ENDS]

 

Timestamp: The following episode contains investigative events which occurred on August 21, 2014.

 

00:58

Host: Welcome back to Bates Investigates - Season One: In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw.  This is episode seventeen.  In the last episode, I wrapped up the allegations of forty-one year old Northeast Oklahoma City resident, Carla Raines.  In the investigative timeline, Oklahoma City Police Sex Crimes Detectives, Rocky Gregory and Kim Davis, have documented seven accusers or alleged victims in this investigation.  An investigation that started in the early morning hours of June 18, 2014, after fifty-seven year old Jannie Ligons was pulled over for swerving while she was driving home from a male friend’s house around 2 a.m.  Within hours of that traffic stop’s conclusion, Ligons made contact with police and reported that she had been sexually assaulted during that traffic stop.  The officer was later identified as twenty-seven year old Oklahoma City Patrol Officer, Daniel Holtzclaw.  We are now two months into the criminal investigation and detectives and prosecutors are ready to make the allegations against Officer Holtzclaw public.  But first, they’ve got to get him into custody. It’s August 21, 2014, a Thursday, and Detective Kim Davis is sitting at her desk at Oklahoma City Police Headquarters. She’s finishing up a Probable Cause Affidavit for the arrest of Officer Daniel Holtzclaw.  You’ll recall back in episode seven, I spoke with local defense attorney, and former Oklahoma County prosecutor, Angela Sonaggera.  I recently sat down with her again, and asked her to help explain exactly what’s going on at this point in the investigation.

 

 

02:45

Angela Sonaggera:  Uh, thanks for having me on again.  I appreciate it.  Probable Cause Affidavit is usually referred to as a PC Affidavit.  It doesn’t list all of the narratives, it doesn’t list all of the victims, it’s just enough for a judge to say yes, I believe there’s enough probable cause to arrest this person.

 

Host:Is it a, is it a very high standard that Kim Davis is gonna have to overcome?

 

Angela Sonaggera:  It’s not huge, but there is… you have to have probable cause to stop somebody and to arrest them, so they have to have enough for the judge to say that’s in that documentation.  Because, obviously, arresting somebody is a very serious thing.  They don’t wanna just issue an arrest warrant, just because. They have to make sure everything’s in order.

 

Host:Could we consider this a pretty one-sided, very short narrative of what the least the prosecution is alleging happened?

 

Angela Sonaggera:  Yes.  That’s a good, that’s a good way of phrasing it, yes.

 

03:37

Host: The three page Affidavit, which I have posted on this episode’s homepage at holtzclawtrial.com, in very damning language lays out the case that Holtzclaw is a serial, sexual predator who used his badge to target and victimize at least seven women, ranging in age from thirty-nine to fifty-seven.  And the common thread amongst the listed victims?  They are all black females, and all but one having a documented history of drug usage and/or prostitution.  Detectives Davis and Gregory take the completed Affidavit to the Oklahoma County Courthouse.  There they seek out Judge Cindy Truong for her signature authorizing the arrest. Again, Angela Sonaggera.

 

04:26

Angela Sonaggera:  Well, usually the police will have the PC Affidavit. They’ll take it to a judge that sometimes is on call, they kind of rotate, or sometimes also, like, at night if they want a search warrant, there’ll be a specific judge that’s on call and they’ll go to their house.  But they’ll go to the courthouse, seek out some particular judge, sometimes it’s just whoever’s available, hand them the documents, and the judge will look it over. If there is probable cause they will sign the documentation and then that will start the process rolling, and they’ll set a bond at that point usually.

 

Host:Judge Truong is a former prosecutor in the Oklahoma County DA’s office.  She started there shortly after graduating law school in 2001.  She worked as an ADA under District Attorney, Wes Lane, and his predecessor, David Prater.  She was elected Judge in 2010.  She has held her office ever since without drawing an opponent.  I just want to interject a brief disclosure.  I know Judge Truong personally and I consider her a friend.  I first met her when she was a prosecutor working for DA Wes Lane.  I also volunteered to aid in her campaign when she successfully ran for election.  Judge Truong reviewed the Affidavit as prepared by Detective Davis.  This document is the only investigative materials the Judge will see before authorizing Officer Holtzclaw’s arrest. Which, when executed, unleashed local, national, and international media coverage and criticism.

 

05:53

Angela Sonaggera:  I wanna disclose that I worked for Judge Truong too. When she was an Assistant District Attorney, we worked briefly together.  And I appeared in front of her as a prosecutor, and briefly as a defense attorney when she had a criminal docket.  She may have just been the presiding judge at the time, or on call, like I said.  Uh, the, the police will go to that judge, present the documentation, and there is no hearing, per se.  The judge will look over the documents, as I said, decide whether or not there is probable cause, and then things get filed, the process starts going.  That point the defense attorney has no say in anything, if—cause the person hasn’t been arrested so there is no defense attorney at that point.  But, yes, it is somewhat one-sided.  I don’t think it’s a nefarious thing though.  It’s just kind of how the process works.  As soon as ba—bond is set and the person is arrested the defense attorney will have an opportunity to lower the bond, if, if they want to.  It’s, it’s kind of like they’re presenting the elements of each crime to the judge and the judge is saying I believe those elements are there and that’s enough to arrest somebody.

 

06:49

Host:The PC Affidavit presented to Judge Truong refers to each of the victims by their initials and begins with the Terri Morris encounter.  The Affidavit, however, doesn’t disclose that she told vastly different versions of the same allegations, doesn’t mention she couldn’t pick Holtzclaw out of a photo line-up as her attacker, or how she identified a different style of police patrol car, nor how Holtzclaw’s AVL didn’t match her story.  Nevertheless, Morris’ allegations resulted in a criminal complaint of Forcible Oral Sodomy, which alone, carries up to twenty years in the penitentiary.  The Affidavit next alleges Jannie Ligons was forced to expose her breasts, pull down her pants, and then perform oral sex on Officer Holtzclaw.  Detective Davis points out that Ligons submitted to a SANE (or rape exam) but the Affidavit fails to mention that the results of that exam did not support her allegations.  From there, the Affidavit focuses on accuser Tabitha Barnes, stating “the defendant harassed her on various occasions” and details how Officer Holtzclaw allegedly burglarized Barnes’ home when he called in the open door on her residence (a residence that had recently been burglarized), conducted a protective sweep, and encountered Barnes’ boyfriend, Terry Williams.  The Affidavit states Holtzclaw told Williams he shouldn’t be in the home, and does it in a way as to make it seem nefarious on Officer Holtzclaw’s part.  And I’d argue that’s mostly due to the fact Detective Davis failed to mention Williams was a registered sex offender and indeed he most likely should not have been residing in Barnes’ home—which is close to a school, a public park, and Barnes herself has young children living in her house.

 

08:49

The Affidavit next details accuser Carla Raines. While Detective Davis is certain to mention that Raines claims Holtzclaw had her expose her breasts, she doesn’t bother to mention she initially (and seven times) denied being a victim.  And even when she does eventually implicate Holtzclaw, Raines admits he never directly told her to expose herself. With accuser Sherry Ellis, Detective Davis says that Holtzclaw encountered her at one location, allegedly forced her to perform oral sex upon him, and that he then drove her to a second location where he removed her from his patrol car and vaginally raped her from behind. This must have sounded absolutely horrific to the judge, especially considering there is no mention that Ellis described her attacker as a short, dark-skinned, black male and that the location she claims she was taken to is not supported by the AVL evidence.  Then there’s accuser Florene Mathis, whom Detective Davis describes as being stopped at Northeast Eighteenth and Kate Avenue, and that Officer Holtzclaw allegedly fondled her breasts on the top of her clothing. Interestingly enough, there is no mention that Mathis claims to be the housekeeper of accuser Tabitha Barnes, and that Holtzclaw’s AVL shows he never encountered Mathis at Northeast Eighteenth and Kate.  Finally, the Affidavit ends with accuser Carla Johnson and her allegations that Officer Holtzclaw touched her breasts and vagina while searching for drugs. All in all, the Affidavit for arrest, prepared by Detective Kim Davis, calls for Oklahoma City Police Officer Daniel Holtzclaw to be arrested on nine criminal complaints.  One count of Rape in the First Degree, Rape by Instrumentation, three counts of Forcible Oral Sodomy, two counts of Sexual Battery, and two counts of Indecent Exposure.  Once again, Angela Sonaggera.

 

11:00

Angela Sonaggera:  Rape is a very serious allegation.  S—s—you know, Forcible Oral Sodomy.  All of them are sexually based crimes.  Those are some of the—the worst crimes that we have.  Because of that the ranges of punishment are pretty harsh. Some of them carry up to ten years. Uh, the Rape charge carries five to life.  Uh, so, it’s a big range of punishment, but those are, you know, for the most serious crimes.  Sometimes the detectives will list out crimes that they think have been, uh, committed on their own, based on their investigation.  Sometimes when it’s something like this, uh, when involving, a, a high profile defendant or high profile suspect, it is done in conjunction with the DA’s office.  It is not uncommon for that to happen, because a lot of times the police will have certain information and they’re not sure maybe they have enough to arrest somebody or to charge somebody so they’ll go to an ADA and say, ‘Hey, you know, do we have enough here?  What do we need if we don’t?  Uh, what are we looking at if we, you know, is there something else we can use instead of this particular charge we’re looking at?’  So, sometimes it is done in conjunction with the DA’s office.

 

Host:Just because they’ve listed certain charges in this, uh, Probable Cause Affidavit for Arrest, does that necessarily mean that’s what he’ll ultimately be charged with?

 

Angela Sonaggera:  Not always.  Typically what happens is they’ll list the crimes they think have been committed by this person and then when those get to the DA or the ADA, they’ll go through and look at everything and see if those elements of those particular crimes are there. If they’re not, they’ll decline certain charges, and/or maybe change it to another charge that might fit a little better, fit the elements a little better.  So, it’s not always the same thing as they start out with.

 

Host:I’m not giving anything away here, most people listening are somewhat familiar with this case.  We’re only at seven accusers and we know, ultimately, there’s thirteen, so obviously, at some point, additional charges are, are going to be added. Uh, and really, we’re at nine.

 

Angela Sonaggera:  Right.

 

Host:And we know, ultimately, he has thirty-six charges against him.

 

Angela Sonaggera:  Correct.

 

Host:So, it’s more of a, kind of a fluid document. This is basically what is utilized, I guess, to get him in custody, and then charges are filed, but even once charges are filed they can be amended and changed and those sorts of things.

 

Angela Sonaggera:  Right.  They can be amended right up unto trial, basically.  Because, you have certain information at that point, and like you said, you want to get somebody in custody if you think they’re a threat to society, and so you charge them with what you have, and sometimes that goes on the news or is in the newspaper or somebody tells somebody else and then more, more victims can come forward and then more charges may develop from that. And then, even, like, when you get to, like, a Preliminary Hearing, if there’s certain testimony the charges can be amended at that point based on the testimony that was given.  So, it, it is a very fluid document.

 

Host:Once the judge signs off on an arrest warrant, a lot of people, especially people who live in, here in Oklahoma, are familiar with websites like OSCN and stuff like that, typically once they get an arrest warrant signed, how long is it before that becomes general public knowledge where even the defendant could be tipped off that there’s a warrant for their arrest?

 

Angela Sonaggera:  Generally it doesn’t take very long.  It, it kind of just depends on how long it takes to get on OSCN.  Um, I’ve seen it happen in a matter of days.  I’ve seen it take a few weeks.  It, it really just depends.  On a ho—high profile case like this it probably won’t take very long because it’ll be given top priority.

 

Host:Which probably explains why immediately a—I don’t think it’s any accident that immediately after this was signed they went right out and put him under arrest.

 

Angela Sonaggera:  Probably not.

 

14:29

Host:It’s just after two in the afternoon.  Judge Truong signs the arrest warrant and officers assemble to decide how best to take Daniel Holtzclaw into custody. Remember, up to this point, he hasn’t been arrested or charged for anything.  He was simply relieved of duty on June 18th and has been free to move about in any way he wishes, with no restrictions.  Detective Gregory decides it would probably be best to take Holtzclaw into custody somewhere out in the open, in public, and to try to catch him off guard.  So, they decide to call Holtzclaw and tell him they need him to speak with his Major, Brian Jennings.  Holtzclaw says he’ll be at the gym in Northwest Oklahoma City and can step outside to talk.  Less than an hour after the warrant is signed, a team of uniformed and undercover officers converge on the Gold’s Gym in the twenty-three hundred block of West Memorial Road.  As Holtzclaw steps outside, he is approached by Detective Gregory, who extends his hand in greeting, but then proceeds to place him under arrest.  Here’s how Detective Gregory described the arrest when he sat down with a reporter with the Daily Oklahoman newspaper.

 

15:45 [RECORDING BEGINS]

Detective Gregory:They, we had, we was a little worried. He, he was big.  So, had the gang guys show up and actually there was a Major that had called him up there.

 

Reporter:[clears throat]

 

Detective Gregory:Said ‘Hey, I need to give you some paperwork.’  Me and my partner, Rob High, we go over there, you know?  As soon as he turned around to see me, he knew what was going on.

 

Reporter:What was his face?

 

Detective Gregory:Uh, shock.  I—i—it was shock.  Uh, you could tell it’s, I mean, I felt like his heartbeat was starting to go. Uh, but he never was angry, anything, didn’t show anything like that.  Uh, I shook hands with him cause I wanted it to be a, a calm interaction. Uh, and then, uh, I just had him turn around.  Kinda explained, you know, I said, ‘We have a warrant for your arrest,’ and, um, you know, ‘We just—we don’t want any problems or anything like that,’ you know, ‘We’re just doing what we’re supposed to do,’ and…  And, uh, he was good.  He obeyed every command.  You know, turn around and hands behind the back and so I put the handcuffs on him and… and, uh, just kind of went from there.  Put him in, uh, one of the gang guy’s cars.  Uh, we followed him down to the County Jail.  They had to clear out the County Jail.  Anytime an officer arrives, everybody goes on lockdown and there is no inmates around.  They don’t want ‘em seeing him, dealing with him.  And it’s for their protection, the officer’s protection.  And, it is pretty quiet around there.  That’s usually one of the busier places.  And I just remember going through with him.  Uh, he was allowed on the phone.  You know, we was trying to give him some courtesy.

 

Reporter:Who’d he call?

 

Detective Gregory:I believe his, uh, dad.  And, uh, I mean he was, I—I can’t remember whether he really cried then or not.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

Host:Immediately after being placed into custody, Holtzclaw was transported to the Oklahoma County Jail, where he is formally booked in and has his mug shot taken.  And he wouldn’t be released any time soon, at least not under the current bail that had been set by Judge Truong.  I asked Angela to provide us with some more details as to the assigning of bond, and exactly when in this process it was set.

 

18:11

Angela Sonaggera:  Probably right when that Probable Cause Affidavit was signed. Because that’s telling the police you can go arrest this person now and you have to set a bond and a bond is usually set by what’s called the Bond Schedule, meaning there’s, like, a list of charges and then they have certain prices or amounts that the bond will be. Like, for example, you know, maybe an Assault and Battery with a Dangerous Weapon will be Five Thousand Dollars, or, you know, Trespassing will be Five Hundred Dollars.  That just means that the judge looks at, the person’s, um, charges, whether or not they have prior charges, or if there’s, you know, two or three charges, kinda add all the numbers together, that’s the bond.  And that’s the amount that the person has to pay or have a bondsman pay to get out of jail.  Uh, this bond is very unusual in that it was Five Mi—first, it was Five Million Dollars, and then, fi—secondly, it was Five Million Dollars cash. Uh, that’s…

 

Host:And what does that mean when they say cash?

 

Angela Sonaggera:  That means you can’t go to a bondsman and put up what’s called a Surety Bond where you just pay part of the bond.  A cash bond means you have to pay all of it.

 

Host:So, have you ever in your career, uh, how long have you been a lawyer?

 

Angela Sonaggera:  Let’s see, I think now, 01, so eighteen years…

 

Host:Eighteen years.

 

Angela Sonaggera:  …nineteen years, almost.

 

Host:Have you ever seen a bond that was Five Million Dollars?

 

Angela Sonaggera:  No.

 

Host:Um, it—it’s essentially no bond.

 

Angela Sonaggera:  Essentially, yeah.  Because most people would not have the means to secure that at all.

 

Host:So, they, you can’t put up just a portion, there’s no need to even call a bondsman because the judge has said you have to put this up literally in cash.

 

Angela Sonaggera:  Right.  What most people probably don’t realize is that, uh, bond is not supposed to be a form of punishment, it’s just supposed to ensure that you’ll show up for your court dates.  However, there isn’t a, there is not a presumption of innocence when a bond is set, the Court actually sets your bond with the assumption that you are guilty.  And in this case, you know, those are very serious charges, hence the high bond.

 

Host:So that would, so anyone who’s—th—w—maybe wants to criticize Judge Truong for the high amount, um, she, even though in the eyes of the law there’s a presumption of innocence until proven guilty, but specifically, in Oklahoma law, it’s the presumption of guilt whenever bond is actually set.

 

Angela Sonaggera:  Right.  And you also have the factor too, the nature of these charges.  They’re bad.  I mean, they’re bad, they’re not a Trespassing charge, so the likelihood that somebody will run or flee because of those charges are being filed or they’re being arrested for them la—you know, is probably very high.  It would be difficult for me to want to stay and face my accusers or go to court on a Rape charge as opposed to a Trespassing charge because the stakes, obviously, are much higher for a Rape charge.  Rape charge carries up to life in prison.  R—you know, Trespassing is maybe a fine or misdemeanor at best.  So, that’s part of the, the bond setting too, is the judge kind of takes all of that together and sets a number.  And again, it—it’s a high profile case.  He has some notoriety.  He’s known probably at this point a little bit, if not in Oklahoma City, he’ll be known nationwide soon, he—they’ve got to make sure he comes back to court.

 

21:20

Host:An—an—and I… some of the insights I have, I know the judge was also told about the DNA evidence that they had found and that they had not identified who it belonged to.  So, potentially, they, they believed that there were additional victims out there that they had yet to identify.  And I think one of the concerns that somebody would have is you wouldn’t want any defendant trying to reach out and intimidate other victims or potential witnesses.

 

Angela Sonaggera:  Right.

 

Host:Um, and the best way to do that would be to keep him locked up.

 

Angela Sonaggera:  Right.

 

Host:And something else a lot of people may not realize, but this comes up, it didn’t in this case, but in other cases, uh, a lot of people will wanna use a public defender because defense attorneys are expensive, but a lot of people don’t realize, and I’ve come across this, if you manage to make bond—which bond in Oklahoma County often times is pretty low, Five Hundred Dollars…

 

Angela Sonaggera:  Right.

 

Host:…to Twenty-Five Hundred Dollars and you only have to put up a percentage of that.  A lot of people don’t realize that when you exercise that right and you use a bondsman and you put that money up, there’s a good chance you now will no longer qualify for a public defender, has that been your experience?

 

Angela Sonaggera:  Yes, uh, typically what happens is you’re in a courtroom and the judge will call the docket and someone will say, ‘I just bonded out but I need to get the application for a public defender,’ and the judge will ask what their bond was, and if it’s, you know, pretty high, like, you know, Five, Ten Thousand Dollars, then they’ll say, ‘Well, you, you can get the application and fill it out but you’re probably not gonna qualify for a public defender because those are for truly indigent people.’  And their thought process, or the system’s thought process, I guess, is that if you can afford to bond out, even if somebody else did it for you, you can afford to get an attorney.

 

Host:And then something else, in a case like this, where, say bond is set at—I, in my opinion, and you tell me if this would be right or not, in my opinion in Oklahoma County a high bond is typically somewhere between Fifty and One Hundred Fifty Thousand Dollars.

 

Angela Sonaggera:  Yeah, I would agree with that.

 

Host:If a person has a bond amount that is set high, and they can’t make it, and they feel that that was unfairly set too high, is there any sort of recourse or anything that a defendant can, can do, if they, they truly feel that their bond was unjustly set?

 

Angela Sonaggera:  Yes, they or their attorney can have a motion to reduce the bond.  And what that is is that’s a hearing that’s set in front of a judge, and the attorney will give a reason to the judge why the bond should be lowered.  Kind of like what we were saying earlier that it’s not supposed to be a form of punishment, it’s just to ensure that you’ll show up. And so the, the attorney will, you know, point out the ties you have to the community, if they’ve lived in the state for a long time, if they have a job here, if they have relatives here, they have—they—you know, something that ties them to this area and ensure their—their appearance, and sometimes the judge will agree with that.  Sometimes they won’t.  Sometimes they’ll take a passport or something else just to ensure it too.  But the bond hearing is that avenue.

 

24:16

Host:Almost immediately as Officer Holtzclaw is taken into custody and booked into jail, the media is alerted to his arrest and a press conference is called by the Oklahoma City Police Department.  The story of an alleged serial rapist with a badge is breaking news.  Despite many groups and individuals claiming this story received little or no attention, the truth is the media coverage was immediate, intense, and spanned the globe. The following is a sample of the breaking news as reported locally by NBC affiliate KFOR News Channel 4.

 

[RECORDING BEGINS]

Linda Cavanaugh:Oklahoma City Police Officer accused of shocking sex crimes.

 

Kevin Ogle:So far seven victims have come forward, but police say there may be more.  Today, court records are providing a timeline of the disturbing allegations.  Officer Daniel Holtzclaw, with the Police Department for three years, is accused of raping and sexually assaulting women he pulled over while on the job.  First at six, News Channel Four’s, Jesse Wells, is covering that story and he’s live in the newsroom with the very latest on the investigation, and Jesse, I know you have reaction from one of the victim’s friends.

 

Jesse Wells:That’s right, Kevin.  According to court records the sexual assaults began back in February and ended in June of this year.  The sad thing is the story of one victim you’ll hear in just a minute, has been duplicated several times over by other women on the City’s Northeast side. An arrest warrant now details how the first allegations against Holtzclaw came to light in February.  A woman claims Holtzclaw touched her bare breasts, adding that the victim had City warrants and Holtzclaw advised her to play by his rules and he would help her out.  From there, allegations arose from different victims on March 14th, April 14th, May 7th, May 8th, May 26th, and lastly on June 18th.  Following that alleged assault in June here at Northeast Fiftieth and Lincoln, Holtzclaw got pulled off the streets.  All of his alleged crimes took place in the Springlake Division on the City’s Northeast side.  So far, seven victims have come forward, all African American women, and police admit there may be more that haven’t come forward.

 

Cap. Dexter Nelson:We’re hoping that this does not affect our public trust, but we know it, it probably will and it can.

 

Jesse Wells:And right now Holtzclaw is still on paid leave while the case is investigated.  He does remain though behind bars at the Oklahoma County Jail. He’s being held on a Five Million Dollar bond.  Linda, back to you.

[RECORDING ENDS]

 

26:46

Host:While the arrest of a police officer for multiple sexual assaults allegedly committed while on duty is news worthy on its own, you need to keep in mind that at this time local, national, and international news was fixated on a racially charged incident out of Ferguson, Missouri: the August 9, 2014 fatal shooting of Michael Brown, an eighteen year old black youth, by a twenty-eight year old white police officer named Darren Wilson.  Just three days before Officer Holtzclaw’s arrest in Oklahoma City, every news channel was leading with the uptick in violent clashes between protestors and police after a curfew was imposed and the National Guard was called out to restore peace.  That incident is also known as the Ferguson Uprising or Ferguson Race Riots.  Like the civil unrest in Missouri, Oklahoma is now facing the same potential powder keg of what is being described as a white officer who intentionally targeted vulnerable African American females. Though, in reality, Officer Holtzclaw is himself a minority, he’s half Japanese.  But that reality is often lost on a media and social justice mob’s with a proven attention-grabbing agenda—white cop versus black citizen. It’s while Holtzclaw is sitting in jail with a Five Million Dollar bond that his father, Eric Holtzclaw, begins contacting attorneys.  One of those attorneys that he calls is high profile criminal defense attorney, Scott Adams. I recently sat down with Mr. Adams in his office at his law firm, Adams and Associates, located in downtown Oklahoma City.  Another disclosure, Scott Adams and I are personal and professional friends.  Best friends by most people’s definition.  I first met Mr. Adams many years ago, probably around 1996, when he cross-examined me (more like crucified me) while I was on the stand as a witness for the prosecution to a crime his client had allegedly committed.  Despite the defendant being convinced he was going to be found guilty, Mr. Adams worked his magic and the jury acquitted.  Mr. Adams’ take-no-prisoners approach to jury trial left an impression upon me.  I hated that he embarrassed and belittled me on the stand, but I admired his unapologetic defense of his client.  When years later in 2005 I found myself the target of an overzealous prosecutor who had me arrested and falsely charged with several serious felonies, I knew exactly who I need to call.  That experience of working with Mr. Adams, and doing much of my own investigative work to prove my innocence, is what convinced me to get my license and become a Private Investigator and work on the behalf of others.  I now office out of Mr. Adams’ law firm and we actually have lived next door to each other as neighbors for several years.

 

29:45

Scott Adams:I’ve been practicing law for thirty years now. I, uh, graduated law school in 1989 from Oklahoma City University, and I basically practice exclusively criminal trial litigation.

 

Host:You would be defined as a, as an actual trial attorney.

 

Scott Adams:Yes.  That’s literally all that I do.

 

Host:There’s a lot of attorneys who will take on criminal cases, but they—they’re not known for going all the way to trial.

 

Scott Adams:Yes, and over the years, we’ve had a reputation for going to trial.

 

Host:Take me back to the day that, I’m assuming, you were first contacted by Eric Holtzclaw.

 

Scott Adams:It was late summer of 2014, and I recall that I received a phone call from a, a police officer, and I believe he was a Lieutenant from some other, uh, police department here in Oklahoma.  You know, p—prior to the phone call, I’d seen, uh, some clips from the local media stations and in the newspaper that there was an officer who’d been arrested here in Oklahoma City.  What I recall—and when I received the phone call it was his father and he is a Lieutenant at a different police department here in Oklahoma and, uh, he was—started talking about his son who was the officer who had been arrested here in Oklahoma City and I put two and two together and figured out they were the same people.

 

Host:What was his reaction?  Or what was he saying to you?  Just ‘how do I get my son out’ or what was his concern?

 

Scott Adams:Well, he, you know, he—his—he was very methodical and his number one concern was his son was in jail and he wanted to know what we could do, uh, to get him out of that situation.  Which, you know, obviously, at that point in time, I didn’t have any information so I didn’t know. Uh, but that was his number one concern. His num—his, his second, uh, concern, was that he felt that his son was being, uh,  charged inappropriately, that he hadn’t done anything wrong, and, and that was his second concern.

 

Host:And, it, it’d be fair to say that up to this point, when, when someone calls you to see about representation, the only thing you have to go on are the charging documents, right?

 

Scott Adams:Un—unfortunately, when I get these phone calls like this the only thing I have to go off of is what the government has suggested or what they’ve filed, which, in this case, was a Probable Cause Affidavit that had some of the information and that’s all that I had.

 

Host:Is it pretty typical that once you finally get to get some actual evidence or discovery that it’s not nearly as nefarious as they write these reports?

 

Scott Adams:A—a simple answer to your question is yes. I mean, typically th—th—they’re skewed in the, in favor of the State or the government, they typically leave out a lot of exculpatory type evidence, and things of that nature.  But, still, what I recall when I read this one, I was taken back by the, the sheer number of allegations.

 

Host:Did Eric Holtzclaw, did he know what the bond situation was at that point?  Did he understand how dire it was?

 

Scott Adams:Yes.  He did.  He knew that it, he knew that it was sig—serious.  I don’t think that he understood how serious it was.

 

Host:What becomes your first priority?

 

Scott Adams:My, my first priority in this case was to try to get Daniel out of jail.  Uh, it’s so much easier to, to work with a client and, and develop a defense, obviously, if your client is out, uh, out of jail and can have access to come into the office and things of that nature.  But that was my number one concern was what could I do immediately if anything to get him out of jail.

 

Host:And in, in this case, Daniel had a Five Million Dollar cash bond, had you ever seen anything like that in Oklahoma County?

 

Scott Adams:L—l—like I said, I’ve practiced law for thirty years and I can’t recall another defendant ever having a Five Million Dollar bond in Oklahoma City.

 

Host:So, this—you think this was more the judge sending a message to the public as opposed to actually enforcing some sort of a bond schedule or something?

 

Scott Adams:I—I—I do.  I believe it was a message to the entire community that, uh, that—they wanted people number one to pay attention to the case, but number two, for whatever reason, they were trying to make an example out of him.

 

Host:What’s the remedy when, when such a high bond, which, basically, Five Million Dollar cash bond is a no bond, wh—is there any legal remedy when they do something like that?

 

Scott Adams:The only remedy that we have is to take it up with the district judge here who set the Five Million Dollar bond.  If I can’t get any relief with that particular judge, then I would have to take it up with the Court of Criminal Appeals here in the state of Oklahoma.

 

33:49

Host:The Holtzclaw family, after speaking to several lawyers, eventually decide to retain Mr. Adams to represent Daniel. And, in the near future, Holtzclaw and his legal team will successfully argue for a more reasonable bond.  Before that can happen, two more accusers will come forward.  One will eventually admit to making up the entire story of being sexually assaulted by Officer Holtzclaw.  The other, she’ll claim Officer Holtzclaw followed her into her home and vaginally raped her in an upstairs bedroom.  But those two stories are for the next episodes.  If you’d like to see and read the actual arrest warrant, police reports, and links to original news coverage, as well as a transcript of this episode, I encourage you to check out this episode's homepage at holtzclawtrial.com. This serialized podcast of the State of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw follows the timeline and perspective of the investigation, but with the scrutiny of the defense.  If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to subscribe and give us a five star review.  You can also follow updates on this season’s Facebook page at In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw, or on Twitter and Instagram @HoltzclawTrial.  Bates Investigates - Season One: In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw is researched, produced, and edited by me, Brian Bates.  This has been a bug stomper production.  

 

[child singing]  Huh? [squishing sound] [laughter] Bugs!

- END -

This site was created and is maintained by Brian Bates - former private investigator for the Daniel Holtzclaw defense team.